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CLAPPER LOADER: Errol Morris
interview, take one.

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Soft sticks. Mark.

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So, what brings you here today?

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(Smerling laughs)

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All right, I want to start
with your story

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inside the story,
like you do in the book.

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Um...

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Christmas 1991‐‐
could we start there?

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Can you remember that day?

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I do remember the day.

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♪♪ ♪♪

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<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>Early that morning,</i>

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<i>I suggested to my wife</i>
<i>we should just go up</i>

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<i>and look at the Jeffrey</i>
<i>MacDonald crime scene together.</i>

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Um...

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what better way
to spend Christmas?

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♪♪ ♪♪

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<i>I get interested in stuff</i>

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<i>because I get bothered</i>
<i>by stuff.</i>

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<i>And what's really interesting</i>
<i>about the MacDonald murder case</i>

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<i>is how many, many,</i>

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many people
have gone back over this.

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<i>It's a case that resists</i>
<i>definitive explanations.</i>

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♪♪ ♪♪

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<i>Wandering in that wilderness</i>
<i>of conflicting evidence</i>

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<i>and interpretations,</i>

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<i>of mistakes, of errors...</i>

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<i>Certainly in this case,</i>

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<i>the mystery is</i>
<i>about what happened</i>

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<i>in that house.</i>

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<i>I went into it with the hope</i>
<i>that I could crack it...</i>

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<i>...that I could come</i>
<i>to some kind of conclusion.</i>

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But you don't know

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whether truth is going to be
difficult to find

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unless you try to find it.

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<i>The wife and two young</i>
<i>daughters of an Army doctor</i>

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<i>were found dead in their home</i>
<i>in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.</i>

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<i>MIKE WALLACE:</i>
<i>You may remember the crime,</i>
<i>back in 1970...</i>

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<i>One of America's most</i>
<i>sensational murder cases...</i>

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<i>...one of the most bizarre</i>
<i>murder cases...</i>

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<i>The most complicated</i>
<i>murder case in history.</i>

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<i>MacDonald says the murderers</i>
<i>were three men and a woman,</i>

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<i>shouting, "Acid is great!</i>
<i>Kill all the pigs!"</i>

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<i>It's a baffling story, the more</i>
<i>you begin to look into it...</i>

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<i>NEWSWOMAN:</i>
<i>Jeffrey MacDonald's life became</i>

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<i>the subject of a book,</i>
<i>a popular miniseries...</i>

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...a television movie
called Fatal Vision.

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<i>NEWSMAN: The bestseller</i>
<i>portrayed MacDonald</i>

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<i>as a cold‐blooded killer.</i>

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<i>NEWSMAN 2:</i>
<i>Today MacDonald was sentenced</i>

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<i>to three life terms in prison.</i>

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(echoing thud)

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<i>MAN 2: Something really,</i>
<i>really bad happened here.</i>

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<i>‐It was a miscarriage</i>
<i>of justice.</i>
<i>‐MacDONALD: Well...</i>

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I cannot overcome Fatal Vision.

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<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>What happens when a narrative</i>

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<i>takes the place of reality?</i>

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<i>It's almost as if nothing</i>
<i>really happened in history</i>

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<i>unless it has been recorded</i>
<i>in a movie.</i>

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<i>Or in a television series.</i>

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<i>NEWSWOMAN 2: A new book by</i>
<i>acclaimed author and filmmaker</i>

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<i>Errol Morris says that the case</i>
<i>may be more complicated</i>

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<i>‐than previously thought.</i>
<i>‐MacDONALD: I did not...</i>

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<i>hurt my wife and my children.</i>

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<i>WOMAN: That evening</i>
<i>I was wearing a blonde wig</i>

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<i>‐and floppy hat.</i>
<i>‐MAN 3: An innocent man</i>

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<i>‐is in jail today.</i>
<i>‐WOMAN 2: The man is guilty</i>

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<i>‐as can be.</i>
<i>‐I am innocent.</i>

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<i>He's lucky I haven't gone out</i>
<i>and killed him.</i>

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<i>MacDONALD (echoes):</i>
<i>I am not that monster.</i>

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(phone dialing)

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<i>(line ringing)</i>

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(phone ringing)

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<i>MORRIS: How old were you</i>
<i>when this happened?</i>

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<i>MICA: That was 1970‐‐</i>
<i>I would have been 23.</i>

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<i>I was an MP at Fort Bragg,</i>

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1968 to 1971.

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And I was one of the first MPs

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in the house at 544 Castle Drive

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the night
of the MacDonald murders.

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<i>MICA:</i>
<i>February 17, 1970,</i>

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<i>was, uh, quiet.</i>

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<i>It was drizzly, rainy, cold.</i>

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(<i>distorted police radio</i>
<i>transmission</i>)

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‐(siren wailing)
<i>‐About 3:40 in the morning,</i>

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<i>we got a radio call</i>
<i>for a disturbance.</i>

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<i>When we get to the call,</i>

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<i>couple cars are already there.</i>

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<i>I run into Richard Tevere.</i>

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<i>We're standing on the steps</i>
<i>in front of the entrance</i>

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<i>to Castle Drive, and I believed</i>

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that there was a disturbance
and possibly a stabbing.

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‐(siren approaching in distance)
<i>‐We couldn't...</i>

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<i>gain entry to the house,</i>

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<i>so I took my flashlight</i>
<i>and I went around the back.</i>

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<i>The rear door was ajar.</i>

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<i>I pulled out my weapon,</i>

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<i>and I put a round</i>
<i>in the chamber...</i>

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<i>not knowing if there was</i>
<i>somebody still in the house.</i>

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<i>I took one step in to the...</i>

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<i>what was, I guess, the bedroom.</i>

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<i>There was blood on the wall,</i>
<i>blood on the ceiling,</i>

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<i>blood all over the place.</i>

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<i>That's when I saw her,</i>
<i>a woman lying on the ground,</i>

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<i>covered with blood,</i>

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<i>and, uh,</i>
<i>a male lying next to her,</i>

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<i>who I didn't know at the time</i>
<i>was Jeffrey MacDonald.</i>

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<i>At first I thought</i>

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it was a homicide‐suicide.

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Uh, but then he started to move.

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<i>I got down next to him</i>

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<i>and started giving him</i>
<i>mouth‐to‐mouth resuscitation.</i>

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<i>He wakes up, and he's saying,</i>
<i>"Check my kids, check my kids.</i>

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I heard my kids."

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<i>TEVERE:</i>
<i>From the master bedroom,</i>

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<i>we just took a few steps,</i>

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<i>looked into the first,</i>
<i>smaller bedroom,</i>

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<i>and I could see the girl.</i>

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<i>She was lifeless.</i>

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<i>And then I went</i>
<i>into the second bedroom,</i>

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<i>and I saw, again,</i>

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<i>a very young girl, lifeless.</i>

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There was blood dripping down
the side of the bed,

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and there was a puddle of blood
on the floor.

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<i>I, uh...</i>

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<i>never in a million years</i>
<i>expected to...</i>

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<i>walk in on something like that.</i>

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<i>So it was a lot to, really,</i>

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process at the time.

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<i>IVORY:</i>
<i>Within five minutes,</i>

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<i>we were at the house.</i>

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<i>There was an Army ambulance</i>

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and a number of MP cars

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<i>already there.</i>

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<i>In the house,</i>
<i>it looked like the living room</i>

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<i>had been caught up</i>
<i>in some sort of struggle.</i>

137
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<i>There was a man on a gurney</i>
<i>being wheeled out.</i>

138
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<i>He was unconscious.</i>

139
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<i>There was a female on the floor</i>
<i>of the master bedroom.</i>

140
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<i>There was a blue pajama top</i>
<i>laying across her chest.</i>

141
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<i>That was strange.</i>

142
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<i>And then, I noticed,</i>
<i>in the headboard</i>

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in the master bed,

144
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<i>there was a bloody imprint</i>
<i>of the word "pig."</i>

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<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>It's the worst thing,</i>

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in my 53 years
in law enforcement,

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that I've ever walked into.

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Uh, it was a gruesome scene
to see a, uh,

149
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a mother and two daughters
mutilated like they were.

150
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And, uh, it's, uh...

151
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it's a s‐‐ it's a scene
that you ain't gonna forget.

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<i>Colette MacDonald was stabbed</i>

153
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multiple times
in the neck and chest.

154
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Both arms were broken.

155
00:10:02,955 --> 00:10:05,355
<i>And she was pregnant.</i>

156
00:10:07,155 --> 00:10:09,921
<i>The older girl</i>
<i>had been stabbed.</i>

157
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And had a blunt instrument wound
to her head.

158
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<i>And the younger girl had been</i>
<i>stabbed numerous times.</i>

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<i>IVORY:</i>
<i>My partner did a 360</i>

160
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around the house.

161
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He went out and he came back
in and he said,

162
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"I think I found
the murder weapons."

163
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<i>There was a club, a knife</i>

164
00:10:36,555 --> 00:10:37,988
<i>and an ice pick.</i>

165
00:10:40,188 --> 00:10:41,788
(siren wailing in distance)

166
00:10:41,855 --> 00:10:44,921
<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>At that point,</i>
<i>I went to the hospital</i>

167
00:10:44,988 --> 00:10:47,355
<i>to try to interview MacDonald.</i>

168
00:10:49,288 --> 00:10:54,088
<i>When I got there,</i>
<i>I was briefed by a doctor.</i>

169
00:10:54,155 --> 00:10:56,088
<i>GEMMA:</i>
<i>There were some scrapes</i>

170
00:10:56,155 --> 00:10:58,655
<i>on his abdomen</i>
<i>and on his chest,</i>

171
00:10:58,721 --> 00:11:01,888
some small puncture wounds
which didn't seem

172
00:11:01,955 --> 00:11:04,688
<i>to be very serious at all.</i>

173
00:11:04,755 --> 00:11:06,855
<i>It's not life‐threatening.</i>

174
00:11:08,888 --> 00:11:10,688
<i>He was...</i>

175
00:11:10,755 --> 00:11:12,888
in no real acute distress.

176
00:11:14,521 --> 00:11:18,155
<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>When I went in,</i>
<i>we identified who we were,</i>

177
00:11:18,221 --> 00:11:22,955
<i>and said, "What can you tell us</i>
<i>about what happened?"</i>

178
00:11:29,255 --> 00:11:33,855
<i>He said that he and Colette</i>
<i>had been listening to a record.</i>

179
00:11:33,921 --> 00:11:38,855
<i>He dozed off on the couch,</i>
<i>and she had went to bed.</i>

180
00:11:41,055 --> 00:11:43,221
<i>He heard Colette hollering,</i>

181
00:11:43,288 --> 00:11:45,555
<i>"Jeff, Jeff,</i>
<i>why are they doing this to me?"</i>

182
00:11:47,655 --> 00:11:49,855
<i>He woke up.</i>

183
00:11:51,455 --> 00:11:57,288
Hippies had broke into the house
and attacked him and his family.

184
00:11:58,255 --> 00:12:00,921
<i>He'd seen two white males,</i>

185
00:12:00,988 --> 00:12:02,955
<i>black guy in an Army jacket,</i>

186
00:12:03,021 --> 00:12:06,821
<i>and a woman with long blonde</i>
<i>hair and a white floppy hat,</i>

187
00:12:06,888 --> 00:12:08,455
<i>wearing boots.</i>

188
00:12:08,521 --> 00:12:09,688
<i>And she was saying,</i>

189
00:12:09,755 --> 00:12:11,821
"Acid is groovy,
acid is groovy,"

190
00:12:11,888 --> 00:12:13,955
and was holding a candle.

191
00:12:14,988 --> 00:12:18,088
<i>He had tried to fight 'em off.</i>

192
00:12:29,588 --> 00:12:30,688
<i>Somehow, my pajama top,</i>

193
00:12:30,755 --> 00:12:32,188
<i>I don't know</i>
<i>if it was ripped forward</i>

194
00:12:32,255 --> 00:12:34,088
<i>or pulled over my head.</i>

195
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‐COLETTE (echoing): Jeff!
<i>‐MacDONALD: All of a sudden,</i>
<i>it was in my way.</i>

196
00:12:36,188 --> 00:12:38,621
‐I couldn't get my hand free.
‐COLETTE: Why are they doing
this to me?!

197
00:12:38,688 --> 00:12:40,888
<i>MacDONALD:</i>
<i>I was grappling with him,</i>
<i>and I saw,</i>

198
00:12:40,955 --> 00:12:43,555
<i>you know, a‐a blade.</i>

199
00:12:43,621 --> 00:12:45,688
<i>I‐I really didn't even defend</i>
<i>myself.</i>

200
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<i>It was really too‐too fast.</i>

201
00:12:48,288 --> 00:12:49,955
<i>KIMBERLY (echoing):</i>
<i>Daddy! Daddy!</i>

202
00:12:50,021 --> 00:12:51,488
<i>And all this time,</i>

203
00:12:51,555 --> 00:12:53,221
<i>I was hearing screams.</i>

204
00:12:53,288 --> 00:12:56,288
<i>KIMBERLY (echoing):</i>
<i>Daddy! Daddy!</i>

205
00:12:59,421 --> 00:13:01,955
♪♪♪♪

206
00:13:04,588 --> 00:13:07,555
<i>Next thing I remember</i>
<i>was lying in the hallway</i>

207
00:13:07,621 --> 00:13:11,021
<i>at the end</i>
<i>of the hallway floor.</i>

208
00:13:11,088 --> 00:13:15,421
<i>And I‐I went down,</i>
<i>um, to the bedroom.</i>

209
00:13:16,588 --> 00:13:19,721
<i>My wife was lying</i>
<i>on‐on the floor,</i>

210
00:13:19,788 --> 00:13:21,521
<i>next to the bed.</i>

211
00:13:22,988 --> 00:13:26,088
<i>I tried to give her</i>
<i>artificial respiration,</i>

212
00:13:26,155 --> 00:13:27,888
<i>but the air was...</i>

213
00:13:27,955 --> 00:13:29,355
<i>was coming out of her chest.</i>

214
00:13:29,421 --> 00:13:30,821
<i>So, uh...</i>

215
00:13:30,888 --> 00:13:32,721
<i>I went, picked up the phone,</i>

216
00:13:32,788 --> 00:13:36,655
<i>and, uh, I said</i>
<i>my name was Captain MacDonald</i>

217
00:13:36,721 --> 00:13:39,121
<i>and I was at 544 Castle Drive</i>

218
00:13:39,188 --> 00:13:42,621
<i>and I needed a doctor</i>
<i>and an ambulance.</i>

219
00:13:43,655 --> 00:13:44,921
<i>I dropped the phone,</i>

220
00:13:44,988 --> 00:13:46,988
<i>and I went back</i>
<i>to check the kids,</i>

221
00:13:47,055 --> 00:13:49,988
<i>check their pulses and stuff</i>
<i>and, uh...</i>

222
00:13:50,055 --> 00:13:51,388
<i>(inhales)</i>

223
00:13:51,455 --> 00:13:52,588
<i>I don't know.</i>

224
00:13:56,555 --> 00:13:59,521
<i>It kept hitting me</i>
<i>that, really, nothing</i>

225
00:13:59,588 --> 00:14:02,121
<i>had been solved</i>
<i>when I called the operator.</i>

226
00:14:02,188 --> 00:14:04,288
<i>So, I went in, you know,</i>
<i>into the kitchen,</i>

227
00:14:04,355 --> 00:14:07,588
<i>picked up that phone</i>
<i>and a sergeant came on.</i>

228
00:14:07,655 --> 00:14:09,588
<i>He said, "Can I help you?"</i>

229
00:14:09,655 --> 00:14:12,955
<i>So I told him that I needed</i>
<i>a doctor and an ambulance,</i>

230
00:14:13,021 --> 00:14:14,955
<i>that some people</i>
<i>had been stabbed,</i>

231
00:14:15,021 --> 00:14:18,221
<i>and I thought</i>
<i>I was going to die.</i>

232
00:14:22,355 --> 00:14:25,788
<i>By this time, I was finding it</i>
<i>really hard to breathe,</i>

233
00:14:25,855 --> 00:14:31,188
<i>and, uh, and, um...</i>

234
00:14:31,255 --> 00:14:33,888
<i>The next thing I knew,</i>
<i>an MP was giving me</i>

235
00:14:33,955 --> 00:14:36,755
<i>mouth‐to‐mouth resuscitation</i>

236
00:14:36,821 --> 00:14:40,521
<i>next to, next to my wife.</i>

237
00:14:51,321 --> 00:14:54,588
What a strange, strange,
strange story.

238
00:14:54,655 --> 00:14:57,988
A product of the times,
the craziness of the times.

239
00:14:58,055 --> 00:15:01,855
Remember how violent and crazy
the '60s were.

240
00:15:01,921 --> 00:15:05,221
<i>NIXON:</i>
<i>Tonight, in South Vietnam,</i>
<i>American units</i>

241
00:15:05,288 --> 00:15:06,955
<i>will attack</i>
<i>the headquarters for...</i>

242
00:15:07,021 --> 00:15:08,988
<i>Mine eyes have seen...</i>

243
00:15:09,055 --> 00:15:11,355
<i>Dr. Martin Luther King</i>
<i>has been shot to death.</i>

244
00:15:11,421 --> 00:15:14,188
<i>NEWS ANCHOR:</i>
<i>Senator Robert Francis Kennedy</i>
<i>died today.</i>

245
00:15:14,255 --> 00:15:17,388
<i>NEWS ANCHOR 2:</i>
<i>Guardsmen opened fire</i>
<i>on the students, killing...</i>

246
00:15:17,455 --> 00:15:20,588
<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>It was a time</i>
<i>of confusion and anger.</i>

247
00:15:20,655 --> 00:15:23,388
<i>With each escalation,</i>
<i>the world comes closer</i>

248
00:15:23,455 --> 00:15:25,988
<i>to the brink</i>
<i>of cosmic disaster.</i>

249
00:15:27,088 --> 00:15:30,921
And then, we have
the Manson murders.

250
00:15:30,988 --> 00:15:32,955
<i>NEWS ANCHOR:</i>
<i>In a scene described</i>
<i>as reminiscent</i>

251
00:15:33,021 --> 00:15:34,721
<i>of a weird religious rite,</i>

252
00:15:34,788 --> 00:15:38,388
<i>five persons, including actress</i>
<i>Sharon Tate, were found dead.</i>

253
00:15:38,455 --> 00:15:40,355
<i>Miss Tate was</i>
<i>eight months pregnant.</i>

254
00:15:40,421 --> 00:15:43,255
<i>Not far away, a middle‐aged</i>
<i>couple was found murdered.</i>

255
00:15:43,321 --> 00:15:46,488
<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>This was one of the cases of</i>
<i>the century. It's everywhere.</i>

256
00:15:46,555 --> 00:15:49,821
<i>NEWS ANCHOR:</i>
<i>The word "WAR" had been</i>
<i>carved on his chest.</i>

257
00:15:49,888 --> 00:15:53,321
<i>With blood, the killer had</i>
<i>scrawled "Death to pigs."</i>

258
00:15:53,388 --> 00:15:59,221
<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>The Mansons are arrested</i>
<i>in December of 1969,</i>

259
00:15:59,288 --> 00:16:03,055
<i>just months before the</i>
<i>MacDonald murders occurred,</i>

260
00:16:03,121 --> 00:16:06,121
in February of 1970.

261
00:16:06,188 --> 00:16:09,121
<i>The Army has suspects,</i>
<i>but no prime suspects</i>

262
00:16:09,188 --> 00:16:11,121
<i>in the bizarre murders</i>
<i>of the wife</i>

263
00:16:11,188 --> 00:16:13,488
<i>and two young daughters</i>
<i>of an Army doctor.</i>

264
00:16:13,555 --> 00:16:18,088
<i>Captain Jeffrey MacDonald</i>
<i>was reported in fair condition.</i>

265
00:16:18,155 --> 00:16:19,455
<i>TEVERE:</i>
<i>We immediately started looking</i>

266
00:16:19,521 --> 00:16:22,255
<i>for these crazed people</i>
<i>running around Fayetteville,</i>

267
00:16:22,321 --> 00:16:25,388
<i>emulating what had happened</i>
<i>in California.</i>

268
00:16:29,255 --> 00:16:32,755
<i>It put the entire Fort Bragg</i>
<i>and Fayetteville area</i>

269
00:16:32,821 --> 00:16:35,221
into a, you know, panic alert.

270
00:16:36,188 --> 00:16:38,555
<i>Everybody was concerned about,</i>

271
00:16:38,621 --> 00:16:41,355
<i>you know, "Would they come back</i>
<i>into the housing area again?"</i>

272
00:16:41,421 --> 00:16:43,388
You know, "What do I do
to protect myself?"

273
00:16:43,455 --> 00:16:45,488
What about my family?
What about my kids?"

274
00:16:47,521 --> 00:16:49,455
<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>When I went home, my wife</i>

275
00:16:49,521 --> 00:16:52,921
<i>had a butcher knife and</i>
<i>a police pistol under a pillow.</i>

276
00:16:52,988 --> 00:16:54,688
She figured if it was hippies,
I guess,

277
00:16:54,755 --> 00:16:57,755
that they were still running
loose out there, you know?

278
00:16:57,821 --> 00:17:01,321
And if they did it one time,
they could do it again.

279
00:17:02,521 --> 00:17:07,155
<i>Fort Bragg is part</i>
<i>of Fayetteville.</i>

280
00:17:07,221 --> 00:17:11,355
<i>Fayetteville was called</i>
<i>"Fayettenam" at that time.</i>

281
00:17:11,421 --> 00:17:15,555
<i>TEVERE:</i>
<i>It was a melting pot for a lot</i>
<i>of different scenarios.</i>

282
00:17:15,621 --> 00:17:17,721
<i>There were hippies,</i>
<i>and there were a lot of guys</i>

283
00:17:17,788 --> 00:17:21,388
that came back from Vietnam
that had drug issues.

284
00:17:26,421 --> 00:17:29,021
<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>There was an area</i>
<i>called Haymount Hill</i>

285
00:17:29,088 --> 00:17:32,155
<i>that was really bad for drugs.</i>

286
00:17:33,355 --> 00:17:35,055
We went there and rounded up

287
00:17:35,121 --> 00:17:37,455
<i>a bunch of hippies</i>
<i>that halfway matched</i>

288
00:17:37,521 --> 00:17:39,521
<i>the description</i>
<i>that MacDonald had given.</i>

289
00:17:41,455 --> 00:17:43,755
<i>And none of them denied</i>
<i>they were on drugs,</i>

290
00:17:43,821 --> 00:17:45,255
<i>but they all denied</i>

291
00:17:45,321 --> 00:17:47,621
<i>having anything to do</i>
<i>with the murders.</i>

292
00:17:47,688 --> 00:17:51,621
Or knowing anybody
fitting the descriptions.

293
00:17:55,621 --> 00:17:57,621
<i>Then, her name came up.</i>

294
00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:01,855
<i>Helena Stoeckley.</i>

295
00:18:03,621 --> 00:18:07,188
<i>A city police officer</i>
<i>named Prince Beasley</i>

296
00:18:07,255 --> 00:18:10,921
<i>clamed that Helena</i>
<i>fit this description.</i>

297
00:18:10,988 --> 00:18:14,288
I had seen Helena
on many occasions,

298
00:18:14,355 --> 00:18:16,521
with these other people
that, uh,

299
00:18:16,588 --> 00:18:19,555
Dr. MacDonald gave
the description of.

300
00:19:13,655 --> 00:19:16,288
<i>IVORY: Prince Beasley</i>
<i>called my office,</i>

301
00:19:16,355 --> 00:19:19,055
so I made it a point to go down
and talk to him.

302
00:19:20,921 --> 00:19:24,121
<i>When I got down there,</i>
<i>she was there.</i>

303
00:19:25,721 --> 00:19:31,388
<i>I interviewed her</i>
<i>and found no leads at all.</i>

304
00:19:31,455 --> 00:19:36,555
Absolutely no information
that would tie her to the case.

305
00:19:44,155 --> 00:19:48,221
<i>It was just‐‐</i>
<i>added more to the confusion.</i>

306
00:20:03,288 --> 00:20:04,555
<i>IVORY:</i>
<i>It was...</i>

307
00:20:04,621 --> 00:20:07,188
about halfway
through the first day.

308
00:20:11,088 --> 00:20:13,821
<i>At that point,</i>
<i>we went back to the house</i>

309
00:20:13,888 --> 00:20:18,021
<i>to take a closer look</i>
<i>at the crime scene...</i>

310
00:20:20,588 --> 00:20:22,021
<i>...to find out</i>

311
00:20:22,088 --> 00:20:25,288
what the story was,
what actually happened there.

312
00:20:27,121 --> 00:20:32,355
<i>HODGES:</i>
<i>It didn't really add up to</i>
<i>anybody broke into the house.</i>

313
00:20:32,421 --> 00:20:37,021
What had happened,
it happened inside that house.

314
00:20:51,588 --> 00:20:54,888
<i>When you get right down to it,</i>
<i>MacDonald's the only one</i>

315
00:20:54,955 --> 00:20:57,521
that possibly could've done it.

316
00:21:03,655 --> 00:21:07,655
CER:
<i>This is</i> CBS News
<i>with Walter Cronkite.</i>

317
00:21:07,721 --> 00:21:11,121
<i>The Army has changed Green</i>
<i>Beret doctor Jeffrey MacDonald</i>

318
00:21:11,188 --> 00:21:12,821
<i>with the murders</i>
<i>of his pregnant wife</i>

319
00:21:12,888 --> 00:21:14,255
<i>and their two young daughters</i>

320
00:21:14,321 --> 00:21:16,655
<i>of Fort Bragg, North Carolina</i>
<i>last February.</i>

321
00:21:16,721 --> 00:21:18,488
<i>It said the case</i>
<i>will be referred...</i>

322
00:21:18,555 --> 00:21:20,188
<i>NEWS ANCHOR:</i>
<i>A military Article 32 hearing</i>

323
00:21:20,255 --> 00:21:22,688
<i>is scheduled to begin</i>
<i>at Fort Bragg</i>

324
00:21:22,755 --> 00:21:25,955
<i>with Special Forces captain</i>
<i>Jeffrey MacDonald.</i>

325
00:21:26,021 --> 00:21:28,888
<i>NEWS ANCHOR 2:</i>
<i>An Article 32</i>
<i>is the military equivalent</i>

326
00:21:28,955 --> 00:21:31,955
<i>of a civilian</i>
<i>preliminary hearing.</i>

327
00:21:34,221 --> 00:21:38,121
<i>MALLEY:</i>
<i>I was just getting ready</i>
<i>to leave for infantry school</i>

328
00:21:38,188 --> 00:21:43,655
<i>when I saw the story</i>
<i>about the murder at Fort Bragg.</i>

329
00:21:43,721 --> 00:21:45,721
<i>I thought, "You know,</i>
<i>he looks familiar."</i>

330
00:21:45,788 --> 00:21:48,555
<i>And then I read it,</i>
<i>and I was shocked.</i>

331
00:21:48,621 --> 00:21:51,721
<i>I thought, "This has really...</i>

332
00:21:51,788 --> 00:21:53,321
"got to be wrong.

333
00:21:53,388 --> 00:21:55,455
"I mean, I don't know why
it's wrong, or how it's wrong,

334
00:21:55,521 --> 00:21:58,855
"but it's got‐‐
I mean, why would Jeff MacDonald

335
00:21:58,921 --> 00:22:00,621
do something like this?"

336
00:22:00,688 --> 00:22:04,988
And I kept saying,
"I h‐‐ To me, it makes no sense,

337
00:22:05,055 --> 00:22:07,255
because I know the guy."

338
00:22:11,588 --> 00:22:15,021
<i>Jeff was my roommate</i>
<i>sophomore year,</i>

339
00:22:15,088 --> 00:22:17,688
in, um, i‐in college.

340
00:22:17,755 --> 00:22:19,221
<i>We went to Princeton,</i>

341
00:22:19,288 --> 00:22:21,755
<i>but Jeff left at the end</i>
<i>of our junior year</i>

342
00:22:21,821 --> 00:22:25,255
<i>to go to medical school,</i>
<i>and I went to law school.</i>

343
00:22:25,321 --> 00:22:26,421
Y‐You could think, you know,

344
00:22:26,488 --> 00:22:28,055
"I wonder if Jeff's
got‐‐ gone crazy.

345
00:22:28,121 --> 00:22:29,955
I wonder if Jeff's taking drugs.
I wonder..."

346
00:22:30,021 --> 00:22:32,521
Y‐You know, th‐‐ all those
things you can think of,

347
00:22:32,588 --> 00:22:34,555
'cause I haven't s‐‐
I hadn't seen him in a year or‐‐

348
00:22:34,621 --> 00:22:36,155
more than a year.

349
00:22:36,221 --> 00:22:41,188
But none of that made any sense,
about the person that I knew.

350
00:22:42,888 --> 00:22:44,421
<i>Then I got a letter from Jeff</i>

351
00:22:44,488 --> 00:22:47,021
<i>saying that he is gonna</i>
<i>request me to be</i>

352
00:22:47,088 --> 00:22:49,321
part of the defense team.

353
00:22:51,555 --> 00:22:56,155
<i>I told him, "You know,</i>
<i>I'm barely out of law school."</i>

354
00:22:56,221 --> 00:22:58,988
<i>He needed to have</i>
<i>a trial lawyer.</i>

355
00:22:59,055 --> 00:23:01,855
<i>NEWS ANCHOR:</i>
<i>The mother of Green Beret</i>
<i>captain Jeffrey MacDonald</i>

356
00:23:01,921 --> 00:23:05,688
<i>has hired a lawyer to defend</i>
<i>her 26‐year‐old son.</i>

357
00:23:05,755 --> 00:23:08,788
<i>The lawyer, Bernard Segal,</i>
<i>says he has started</i>

358
00:23:08,855 --> 00:23:11,855
<i>his own investigation</i>
<i>of February's slayings.</i>

359
00:23:11,921 --> 00:23:13,388
(excited chatter)

360
00:23:13,455 --> 00:23:16,221
SEGAL:
With all my heart,
I tell every one of them

361
00:23:16,288 --> 00:23:18,955
that Jeffrey MacDonald
did not kill his family.

362
00:23:20,688 --> 00:23:24,421
<i>MALLEY:</i>
<i>Bernie Segal had</i>
<i>a reputation as being</i>

363
00:23:24,488 --> 00:23:27,188
one of the upcoming criminal
trial lawyers in Philadelphia.

364
00:23:27,255 --> 00:23:31,221
SEGAL:
He is innocent
of the charges against him.

365
00:23:34,621 --> 00:23:39,521
MORRIS:
So, Cliff, why did you sit down
to do this interview?

366
00:23:39,588 --> 00:23:42,521
You asked me.
You're the only ones who have.

367
00:23:42,588 --> 00:23:46,321
Nobody ever asked me.
I was sort of surprised.

368
00:23:51,288 --> 00:23:55,621
<i>Article 32s are normally</i>
<i>quiet investigations.</i>

369
00:23:59,288 --> 00:24:03,455
<i>But this case was a big deal.</i>

370
00:24:04,655 --> 00:24:06,455
<i>And so,</i>

371
00:24:06,521 --> 00:24:11,521
<i>when they asked me</i>
<i>to be the lead prosecutor,</i>

372
00:24:11,588 --> 00:24:14,955
hot dog that I was, I said,
"Gee, that'd be wonderful."

373
00:24:15,021 --> 00:24:18,621
♪♪ ♪♪

374
00:24:21,388 --> 00:24:23,321
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>You've got to realize there was</i>

375
00:24:23,388 --> 00:24:25,455
an anti‐Army feeling
at the time.

376
00:24:25,521 --> 00:24:27,055
♪♪ ♪♪

377
00:24:27,121 --> 00:24:30,088
<i>In this case</i>
<i>had so much publicity.</i>

378
00:24:30,155 --> 00:24:32,055
<i>It was on the headlines</i>
<i>every day.</i>

379
00:24:32,121 --> 00:24:34,421
<i>It had everything‐‐</i>
<i>Ivy League school,</i>

380
00:24:34,488 --> 00:24:38,255
<i>doctor, Green Beret,</i>
<i>all‐American boy,</i>

381
00:24:38,321 --> 00:24:39,888
<i>pregnant wife, children,</i>

382
00:24:39,955 --> 00:24:42,988
<i>homicide, and the</i>

383
00:24:43,055 --> 00:24:46,088
pressure was
on the Army to perform.

384
00:24:50,688 --> 00:24:53,188
♪♪ ♪♪

385
00:24:53,255 --> 00:24:56,088
<i>BEALE:</i>
<i>This tragic murder happened,</i>

386
00:24:56,155 --> 00:24:57,621
and it was just awful.

387
00:24:57,688 --> 00:25:00,155
But, uh, fortunately,
I was in the right place

388
00:25:00,221 --> 00:25:02,155
at the right time
and the general offered me

389
00:25:02,221 --> 00:25:04,221
the chance to be the judge.

390
00:25:07,055 --> 00:25:10,021
<i>Of course, when I say "judge,"</i>
<i>technically I was</i>

391
00:25:10,088 --> 00:25:13,721
the legal advisor
to the Article 32 officer...

392
00:25:13,788 --> 00:25:16,321
<i>Colonel Rock.</i>

393
00:25:17,655 --> 00:25:21,088
This Article 32was
the biggest oneI've ever seen.

394
00:25:21,155 --> 00:25:25,088
<i>We knew‐‐</i>
<i>we being the defense team‐‐</i>

395
00:25:25,155 --> 00:25:27,321
<i>we're not rolling over here.</i>

396
00:25:36,355 --> 00:25:38,688
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>I don't think any of us</i>

397
00:25:38,755 --> 00:25:42,188
<i>at that point had a real grasp</i>

398
00:25:42,255 --> 00:25:46,488
of just how complex this
was going to turn out to be.

399
00:25:48,255 --> 00:25:50,988
ROCK:
This hearing will come to order.

400
00:25:53,088 --> 00:25:55,421
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>In order to establish</i>

401
00:25:55,488 --> 00:25:57,955
<i>what was found</i>
<i>from the beginning,</i>

402
00:25:58,021 --> 00:26:00,055
you have to call the witnesses

403
00:26:00,121 --> 00:26:02,355
who were on the scene
at the beginning.

404
00:26:05,188 --> 00:26:07,888
<i>And that would be Mica.</i>

405
00:26:07,955 --> 00:26:11,088
<i>The government calls</i>
<i>Specialist Fourth Class Mica.</i>

406
00:26:12,488 --> 00:26:15,588
<i>MICA: When they started</i>
<i>the Article 32,</i>

407
00:26:15,655 --> 00:26:18,455
I testified the 5th of July.

408
00:26:18,521 --> 00:26:20,121
It was my birthday.

409
00:26:20,188 --> 00:26:23,121
SOMERS:
What was the weather
like that morning?

410
00:26:23,188 --> 00:26:25,488
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>It was raining.</i>

411
00:26:25,555 --> 00:26:28,021
<i>It rained off and on</i>
<i>all night long.</i>

412
00:26:28,088 --> 00:26:29,988
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>Did you note any unusual</i>

413
00:26:30,055 --> 00:26:31,655
<i>pedestrians or disturbances</i>

414
00:26:31,721 --> 00:26:34,021
<i>in the early morning</i>
<i>of the 17th of February</i>

415
00:26:34,088 --> 00:26:36,521
<i>in that Castle Drive area?</i>

416
00:26:37,821 --> 00:26:39,555
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>No, sir.</i>

417
00:26:39,621 --> 00:26:42,455
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>According to</i>
<i>Captain McDonald's story,</i>

418
00:26:42,521 --> 00:26:46,855
<i>four intruders</i>
<i>came into his house.</i>

419
00:26:49,321 --> 00:26:51,155
Did you see any mud
or foreign debris

420
00:26:51,221 --> 00:26:53,755
on the floor of the hall,
which traversed the living room?

421
00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:56,155
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>No, sir.</i>

422
00:26:56,221 --> 00:26:57,855
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>I was trying to establish</i>

423
00:26:57,921 --> 00:26:59,721
<i>an amazing lack</i>

424
00:26:59,788 --> 00:27:02,655
<i>of evidence of anyone</i>

425
00:27:02,721 --> 00:27:04,621
<i>having come into that place.</i>

426
00:27:04,688 --> 00:27:07,288
<i>When you glanced</i>
<i>into the living room,</i>

427
00:27:07,355 --> 00:27:10,321
<i>dining room, kitchen area,</i>
<i>did you notice any</i>

428
00:27:10,388 --> 00:27:12,888
<i>particular disarray</i>
<i>in the dining room area?</i>

429
00:27:12,955 --> 00:27:15,588
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>Not in the dining room.</i>

430
00:27:15,655 --> 00:27:18,021
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>The dining room</i>
<i>could not have been</i>

431
00:27:18,088 --> 00:27:21,121
more than six feet at most
away from where all

432
00:27:21,188 --> 00:27:24,221
<i>this fighting was taking place.</i>

433
00:27:27,121 --> 00:27:29,588
<i>Yet cards, which were</i>
<i>standing up on the table,</i>

434
00:27:29,655 --> 00:27:31,321
<i>are still standing.</i>

435
00:27:31,388 --> 00:27:34,021
<i>Which I find almost impossible</i>

436
00:27:34,088 --> 00:27:37,521
if there had been a fight there.

437
00:27:37,588 --> 00:27:39,155
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>In the living room, there was</i>

438
00:27:39,221 --> 00:27:41,355
<i>a coffee table overturned.</i>

439
00:27:41,421 --> 00:27:43,355
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>How was it lying,</i>
<i>on its top or‐‐?</i>

440
00:27:43,421 --> 00:27:45,388
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>On its edge.</i>

441
00:27:45,455 --> 00:27:48,721
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>The CID investigators</i>
<i>knocked that coffee table</i>

442
00:27:48,788 --> 00:27:50,621
<i>over again and again</i>

443
00:27:50,688 --> 00:27:53,755
<i>and again.</i>

444
00:27:53,821 --> 00:27:55,321
<i>It always fell on its top.</i>

445
00:27:55,388 --> 00:27:59,055
<i>How this table could have been</i>
<i>sitting on its side</i>

446
00:27:59,121 --> 00:28:01,555
<i>on top of this stack</i>
<i>of magazines</i>

447
00:28:01,621 --> 00:28:03,621
<i>as a result of being</i>

448
00:28:03,688 --> 00:28:05,621
knocked over in a fight

449
00:28:05,688 --> 00:28:07,188
is inconceivable.

450
00:28:07,255 --> 00:28:09,955
<i>I have no further questions.</i>

451
00:28:11,821 --> 00:28:14,455
<i>MALLEY:</i>
<i>The prosecution said,</i>
<i>"Everybody knows</i>

452
00:28:14,521 --> 00:28:16,955
<i>that the guy who is accused</i>
<i>did it anyway,"</i>

453
00:28:17,021 --> 00:28:22,588
<i>and so, they felt they have an</i>
<i>authority that nobody else has.</i>

454
00:28:22,655 --> 00:28:26,055
They had no idea, no idea,

455
00:28:26,121 --> 00:28:28,988
what real defense counsel
could do.

456
00:28:29,855 --> 00:28:31,288
SEGAL:
At this time,

457
00:28:31,355 --> 00:28:32,955
<i>I want to show you</i>
<i>some photographs</i>

458
00:28:33,021 --> 00:28:35,455
<i>that have been supplied to</i>
<i>the defense by the government.</i>

459
00:28:36,221 --> 00:28:37,421
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>We got</i>

460
00:28:37,488 --> 00:28:40,321
the witness statements
and whatnot from the various MPs

461
00:28:40,388 --> 00:28:42,055
<i>and the crime scene</i>
<i>photographs,</i>

462
00:28:42,121 --> 00:28:45,388
and they didn't
necessarily jive.

463
00:28:45,455 --> 00:28:48,521
SEGAL:
Specialist Mica,
do you ever recall

464
00:28:48,588 --> 00:28:52,188
<i>seeing the telephone</i>
<i>in that particular fashion?</i>

465
00:28:52,255 --> 00:28:54,121
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>Yes, sir.</i>

466
00:28:54,188 --> 00:28:58,121
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>Do you ever recall the handset</i>
<i>being where it appears to be</i>

467
00:28:58,188 --> 00:28:59,555
<i>in this photograph?</i>

468
00:28:59,621 --> 00:29:02,788
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>No, sir, not that I remember.</i>

469
00:29:02,855 --> 00:29:04,488
<i>What happened was,</i>

470
00:29:04,555 --> 00:29:08,621
photographer came in,
he started taking photos...

471
00:29:10,955 --> 00:29:14,221
<i>...and he got so upset and sick</i>
<i>that he couldn't continue.</i>

472
00:29:14,288 --> 00:29:17,288
<i>So you had one set of</i>
<i>photographs i‐in the beginning,</i>

473
00:29:17,355 --> 00:29:19,621
<i>then you had a time lapse</i>

474
00:29:19,688 --> 00:29:22,555
<i>by the time they brought</i>
<i>a second photographer in.</i>

475
00:29:22,621 --> 00:29:27,055
<i>And they had two different sets</i>
<i>of photos they were using.</i>

476
00:29:29,388 --> 00:29:31,288
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>To me, the first thing you do</i>
<i>is secure</i>

477
00:29:31,355 --> 00:29:33,788
the crime scene,
and that was not done.

478
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:36,988
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>What is different</i>
<i>in this photograph</i>

479
00:29:37,055 --> 00:29:39,255
than as what you recall seeing?

480
00:29:39,321 --> 00:29:42,388
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>Well, it shows</i>
<i>this red thing here.</i>

481
00:29:42,455 --> 00:29:44,221
<i>I thought it was</i>
<i>more or less down the steps</i>

482
00:29:44,288 --> 00:29:45,888
<i>in front of the stairs.</i>

483
00:29:45,955 --> 00:29:47,421
<i>MALLEY:</i>
<i>Bernie's view was, "You know,</i>

484
00:29:47,488 --> 00:29:51,188
"once you start pulling
those little threads out,

485
00:29:51,255 --> 00:29:55,188
the garment might fall apart,"
and it turned out, it did.

486
00:29:55,255 --> 00:29:58,721
SEGAL:
What is different
about that white flower pot

487
00:29:58,788 --> 00:30:01,255
in the photograph
than as what you recall seeing?

488
00:30:01,321 --> 00:30:02,988
In this photograph,
it is standing

489
00:30:03,055 --> 00:30:05,888
<i>on what appears to be its base.</i>

490
00:30:05,955 --> 00:30:08,155
<i>I remember it as being</i>
<i>on its side.</i>

491
00:30:08,221 --> 00:30:10,555
<i>BEALE:</i>
<i>There was a flower pot</i>

492
00:30:10,621 --> 00:30:12,055
that got stood up.

493
00:30:12,121 --> 00:30:13,521
<i>They had moved the clothing.</i>

494
00:30:13,588 --> 00:30:15,188
<i>Somebody put the phone</i>

495
00:30:15,255 --> 00:30:17,121
<i>back on the hook.</i>

496
00:30:17,188 --> 00:30:18,621
<i>It really started</i>
<i>to raise questions</i>

497
00:30:18,688 --> 00:30:22,121
in your mind of, "Gee whiz,
what were they doing?

498
00:30:22,188 --> 00:30:24,055
Who was moving all this stuff?"

499
00:30:24,121 --> 00:30:27,821
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>I would like, if you could</i>
<i>assist us, Specialist Mica,</i>

500
00:30:27,888 --> 00:30:30,221
<i>to help us determine</i>

501
00:30:30,288 --> 00:30:32,688
<i>how many people were</i>
<i>in the MacDonald house</i>

502
00:30:32,755 --> 00:30:35,788
<i>at the time the medics came</i>
<i>and removed Captain MacDonald.</i>

503
00:30:35,855 --> 00:30:39,055
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>There were just</i>
<i>too many people in there.</i>

504
00:30:39,121 --> 00:30:40,955
<i>At one point, somebody said,</i>

505
00:30:41,021 --> 00:30:42,521
"How long is it gonna be
before they, you know,

506
00:30:42,588 --> 00:30:44,788
remove the bodies," they said,
"Oh, it's gonna be hours,"

507
00:30:44,855 --> 00:30:46,321
and this guy's like, "Ugh."

508
00:30:46,388 --> 00:30:50,321
<i>He walked across,</i>
<i>sat on the couch.</i>

509
00:30:50,388 --> 00:30:52,855
<i>I said, "Get off the couch."</i>

510
00:30:52,921 --> 00:30:54,388
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>That white flower pot,</i>

511
00:30:54,455 --> 00:30:57,321
how had it gotten
from its position

512
00:30:57,388 --> 00:31:00,721
lying on its side
to standing on its base?

513
00:31:00,788 --> 00:31:04,921
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>I believe it was that man</i>
<i>who sat on the couch</i>

514
00:31:04,988 --> 00:31:07,355
<i>I believe he sat it upright.</i>

515
00:31:09,021 --> 00:31:13,455
SEGAL:
I have nothing further of this
witness, sir, at this time.

516
00:31:15,955 --> 00:31:17,555
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>Once we started to cut</i>

517
00:31:17,621 --> 00:31:21,088
the feet out from under them,
we began to feel pretty good.

518
00:31:21,155 --> 00:31:22,488
<i>Bernie decided,</i>

519
00:31:22,555 --> 00:31:24,155
<i>"Let's go back</i>
<i>to the table going over.</i>

520
00:31:24,221 --> 00:31:26,588
That was a big deal for them."

521
00:31:26,655 --> 00:31:28,555
<i>And if you look</i>
<i>at the photographs,</i>

522
00:31:28,621 --> 00:31:33,421
<i>there was a rocking chair</i>
<i>in front of the table.</i>

523
00:31:33,488 --> 00:31:36,421
And we figured, "Wait a minute,
what happened was,

524
00:31:36,488 --> 00:31:40,155
"is the‐the coffee table hit the
chair, spun the chair around,

525
00:31:40,221 --> 00:31:42,555
"it stopped the momentum,
the magazines fell

526
00:31:42,621 --> 00:31:44,721
and the coffee table
landed on top of 'em."

527
00:31:44,788 --> 00:31:48,555
<i>We asked Colonel Rock</i>
<i>to try and settle it.</i>

528
00:31:48,621 --> 00:31:51,988
<i>BEALE:</i>
<i>Colonel Rock and I went over</i>

529
00:31:52,055 --> 00:31:54,755
to the quarters where
the murders took place.

530
00:31:54,821 --> 00:31:58,488
<i>He wanted to try this little</i>
<i>experiment with this table.</i>

531
00:32:05,321 --> 00:32:07,488
<i>How'd it land‐land on its side?</i>

532
00:32:07,555 --> 00:32:11,455
He kind of laughed and said,
"So much for that theory."

533
00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,755
(indistinct chatter)

534
00:32:13,821 --> 00:32:17,621
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>The crime scene handling</i>
<i>by the, uh, Army CID</i>

535
00:32:17,688 --> 00:32:21,421
<i>is a primary example of a crime</i>
<i>scene investigation gone mad.</i>

536
00:32:21,488 --> 00:32:25,821
<i>27 different people marched</i>
<i>through the crime scene,</i>

537
00:32:25,888 --> 00:32:30,455
<i>destroying a great deal of what</i>
<i>was potential evidence there,</i>

538
00:32:30,521 --> 00:32:31,955
<i>without a doubt.</i>

539
00:32:47,188 --> 00:32:50,421
<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>The deaths were horrible.</i>

540
00:32:50,488 --> 00:32:56,155
And we're talking
about his wife, his children.

541
00:32:56,221 --> 00:33:00,055
<i>We're talking about</i>
<i>two little girls.</i>

542
00:33:00,121 --> 00:33:03,455
<i>Kimberley and Kristen,</i>
<i>five and two.</i>

543
00:33:06,555 --> 00:33:08,688
<i>If Jeffrey indeed</i>
<i>was responsible</i>

544
00:33:08,755 --> 00:33:10,955
<i>for these murders...</i>

545
00:33:13,655 --> 00:33:17,688
...what was the motivation?

546
00:33:17,755 --> 00:33:20,255
Why did he do it?

547
00:33:23,121 --> 00:33:24,721
<i>ROCK:</i>
<i>Does counsel for the accused</i>

548
00:33:24,788 --> 00:33:28,521
<i>have any further witnesses</i>
<i>at this time?</i>

549
00:33:28,588 --> 00:33:32,455
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>Yes, sir. Mr. Kassab, please.</i>

550
00:33:32,521 --> 00:33:35,821
Would you state what
relationship you are

551
00:33:35,888 --> 00:33:37,721
to Captain Jeffrey MacDonald?

552
00:33:37,788 --> 00:33:40,588
I am his father‐in‐law.

553
00:33:40,655 --> 00:33:42,321
<i>DOUTHAT: Did you ever hear</i>
<i>Jeff MacDonald</i>

554
00:33:42,388 --> 00:33:47,155
<i>raise his voice</i>
<i>to your daughter in anger?</i>

555
00:33:47,221 --> 00:33:49,288
<i>FREDDY:</i>
<i>No. Never at any time.</i>

556
00:33:49,355 --> 00:33:54,255
<i>They were the happiest</i>
<i>I'd ever seen them.</i>

557
00:33:54,321 --> 00:33:57,721
<i>MALLEY: We interviewed a lot</i>
<i>of his friends, his family,</i>

558
00:33:57,788 --> 00:34:01,821
his‐his former patients, to show
what kind of a guy he was.

559
00:34:01,888 --> 00:34:05,521
<i>Everybody liked Jeff,</i>

560
00:34:05,588 --> 00:34:09,288
<i>including Freddy Kassab.</i>

561
00:34:09,355 --> 00:34:11,888
SEGAL:
Can you describe
his attitude and conduct

562
00:34:11,955 --> 00:34:13,355
towards his children?

563
00:34:13,421 --> 00:34:16,155
<i>FREDDY:</i>
<i>Every time you'd turn around,</i>

564
00:34:16,221 --> 00:34:18,921
<i>he had one of the girls</i>
<i>playing with him.</i>

565
00:34:20,788 --> 00:34:23,688
MAN:
Do you and Mildred miss Colette?

566
00:34:23,755 --> 00:34:25,455
Oh, God, yes.

567
00:34:26,488 --> 00:34:28,455
<i>And the children.</i>

568
00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:35,921
<i>MAN:</i>
<i>Life hasn't been</i>
<i>quite the same?</i>

569
00:34:35,988 --> 00:34:39,988
<i>FREDDY:</i>
<i>It's never been the same</i>
<i>since that day.</i>

570
00:35:00,688 --> 00:35:04,521
<i>STEVENSON: I remember</i>
<i>standing there, waiting,</i>

571
00:35:04,588 --> 00:35:06,588
<i>and then seeing...</i>

572
00:35:07,755 --> 00:35:09,855
...beside my sister's coffin,

573
00:35:09,921 --> 00:35:13,721
two little coffins
about this big

574
00:35:13,788 --> 00:35:16,121
being put into the ground.

575
00:35:16,188 --> 00:35:21,388
It broke me. It broke me.

576
00:35:27,355 --> 00:35:29,455
<i>‐MORRIS: When we spoke</i>
<i>the first time...</i>
<i>‐Yes.</i>

577
00:35:29,521 --> 00:35:31,155
<i>MORRIS:</i>
<i>...you seemed at wit's end</i>

578
00:35:31,221 --> 00:35:33,755
<i>with this constant retelling</i>
<i>of this story.</i>

579
00:35:33,821 --> 00:35:39,588
Every year, somebody wants
to throw a rope around my legs

580
00:35:39,655 --> 00:35:42,588
and drag me through
the family pool of blood again,

581
00:35:42,655 --> 00:35:45,621
and I have to go through all of
it and learning too many things,

582
00:35:45,688 --> 00:35:49,288
uh‐‐ remembering things I don't
want to remember anymore,

583
00:35:49,355 --> 00:35:50,855
and I'm not gonna do it anymore.

584
00:35:50,921 --> 00:35:52,955
That was... that was it.

585
00:35:55,388 --> 00:36:01,055
<i>But I've come to understand</i>
<i>that it's not going to go away.</i>

586
00:36:01,121 --> 00:36:02,988
<i>I'll tell my story.</i>

587
00:36:03,821 --> 00:36:06,355
I'll tell what I can.

588
00:36:07,588 --> 00:36:10,521
♪♪ ♪♪

589
00:36:12,121 --> 00:36:15,255
<i>My mother wanted a girl</i>
<i>desperately.</i>

590
00:36:16,588 --> 00:36:18,621
<i>She had had stillborn children.</i>

591
00:36:19,921 --> 00:36:22,488
<i>Each one was named Colette.</i>

592
00:36:22,555 --> 00:36:26,188
<i>I remember one of my mother's</i>
<i>Catholic friends saying,</i>

593
00:36:26,255 --> 00:36:28,888
"How will God ever know
which Colette is which?"

594
00:36:28,955 --> 00:36:30,788
Tried to deter her.

595
00:36:30,855 --> 00:36:32,455
"Don't do another Colette."

596
00:36:33,988 --> 00:36:37,355
<i>But yet, my sister was</i>
<i>Colette Three.</i>

597
00:36:38,955 --> 00:36:42,488
<i>My mother dressed her</i>
<i>to a fault.</i>

598
00:36:42,555 --> 00:36:45,288
<i>She was</i>
<i>the most picturesque thing</i>

599
00:36:45,355 --> 00:36:47,588
<i>you ever saw in your life.</i>

600
00:36:50,988 --> 00:36:52,921
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>When did you meet Colette?</i>

601
00:36:52,988 --> 00:36:55,155
Kindergarten.

602
00:36:55,221 --> 00:36:57,321
You know, you walk in
the first day,

603
00:36:57,388 --> 00:37:00,321
and, you know,
you look to find somebody.

604
00:37:02,655 --> 00:37:07,121
<i>Right from the beginning,</i>
<i>we were kind of buddies.</i>

605
00:37:07,188 --> 00:37:10,121
<i>She was funny,</i>
<i>she was lighthearted.</i>

606
00:37:10,188 --> 00:37:12,321
<i>She was my best friend.</i>

607
00:37:12,388 --> 00:37:17,188
<i>But as close as I was to her...</i>

608
00:37:18,355 --> 00:37:21,588
<i>...she camouflaged</i>
<i>a lot of things.</i>

609
00:37:24,755 --> 00:37:27,855
<i>The only thing she shared is</i>
<i>when her father died,</i>

610
00:37:27,921 --> 00:37:31,088
how sad, how devastated she was.

611
00:37:36,855 --> 00:37:38,855
We were really much closer

612
00:37:38,921 --> 00:37:41,188
than most mothers and daughters,

613
00:37:41,255 --> 00:37:44,621
because as a little child,
she lost her father,

614
00:37:44,688 --> 00:37:46,921
and I meant...

615
00:37:46,988 --> 00:37:49,521
more to her because of that.

616
00:37:49,588 --> 00:37:51,721
And then, when I married Freddy,

617
00:37:51,788 --> 00:37:55,255
she just loved him as a father.

618
00:37:55,321 --> 00:37:58,421
<i>MAN:</i>
<i>How old was Colette</i>
<i>when you first met her?</i>

619
00:37:58,488 --> 00:38:00,155
<i>FREDDY:</i>
<i>When I first met Colette,</i>

620
00:38:00,221 --> 00:38:02,888
<i>she was approximately</i>
<i>13 years of age.</i>

621
00:38:02,955 --> 00:38:04,755
I was courting her mother.

622
00:38:04,821 --> 00:38:08,055
Um, it was
quite a while back now.

623
00:38:08,121 --> 00:38:10,621
<i>STEVENSON:</i>
<i>Colette loved Freddy.</i>

624
00:38:10,688 --> 00:38:13,955
<i>She loved him very, very much.</i>

625
00:38:15,288 --> 00:38:17,355
<i>MAN:</i>
<i>You have also</i>

626
00:38:17,421 --> 00:38:20,021
known Jeff MacDonald
for a long, long time.

627
00:38:20,088 --> 00:38:22,788
When did you first meet
MacDonald?

628
00:38:22,855 --> 00:38:24,755
I first met MacDonald

629
00:38:24,821 --> 00:38:29,421
probably within a month or two
after I met Colette.

630
00:38:29,488 --> 00:38:32,521
They were in junior high school
together,

631
00:38:32,588 --> 00:38:34,988
and he would come over
to the house.

632
00:38:36,988 --> 00:38:40,988
<i>MILDRED:</i>
<i>He and Colette dated</i>
<i>through high school.</i>

633
00:38:41,055 --> 00:38:44,421
We thought he was a...
an especially nice boy.

634
00:38:44,488 --> 00:38:46,188
Very nice.

635
00:38:47,455 --> 00:38:49,855
<i>REICH:</i>
<i>Jeff was a football star.</i>

636
00:38:49,921 --> 00:38:52,455
<i>He had charisma.</i>

637
00:38:52,521 --> 00:38:54,655
<i>Everybody liked him.</i>

638
00:38:54,721 --> 00:38:56,588
He was outgoing.

639
00:38:56,655 --> 00:38:58,455
Uh, he was friendly.

640
00:38:58,521 --> 00:39:01,321
<i>He was just everything.</i>

641
00:39:03,055 --> 00:39:06,688
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>How quickly did Jeffrey</i>
<i>and Colette get married?</i>

642
00:39:06,755 --> 00:39:08,855
<i>REICH:</i>
<i>She was 20.</i>

643
00:39:08,921 --> 00:39:11,055
<i>I came back from school, and</i>

644
00:39:11,121 --> 00:39:13,321
she called to say
she was getting married.

645
00:39:13,388 --> 00:39:16,255
And, you know,
I was a little surprised,

646
00:39:16,321 --> 00:39:18,321
but then I realized she told me

647
00:39:18,388 --> 00:39:20,388
why they were getting married,
so...

648
00:39:20,455 --> 00:39:21,855
SMERLING:
And why was that?

649
00:39:21,921 --> 00:39:23,855
She was pregnant.

650
00:39:28,321 --> 00:39:30,221
<i>MAN:</i>
<i>I take it you</i>
<i>and Mildred were pleased</i>

651
00:39:30,288 --> 00:39:31,721
<i>when they decided</i>
<i>to get married?</i>

652
00:39:31,788 --> 00:39:34,855
<i>FREDDY:</i>
<i>Oh, yes.</i>

653
00:39:34,921 --> 00:39:37,021
<i>He was a nice,</i>
<i>presentable young man,</i>

654
00:39:37,088 --> 00:39:39,388
<i>good potential for the future,</i>

655
00:39:39,455 --> 00:39:40,921
<i>so therefore</i>
<i>we saw nothing wrong</i>

656
00:39:40,988 --> 00:39:42,588
<i>with them getting married.</i>

657
00:39:54,955 --> 00:39:56,721
FREDDY:
May I add one thing?

658
00:39:56,788 --> 00:39:58,288
SEGAL:
Yes, you may.

659
00:39:58,355 --> 00:40:00,421
FREDDY:
If I had another daughter,

660
00:40:00,488 --> 00:40:03,921
I'd still want
the same son‐in‐law.

661
00:40:11,888 --> 00:40:15,188
(crowd chatter)

662
00:40:16,921 --> 00:40:19,155
My daughter
and two grandchildren...

663
00:40:19,221 --> 00:40:21,455
(clears throat)
Excuse me.

664
00:40:21,521 --> 00:40:25,855
...suffered in excess
of 80 stab wounds.

665
00:40:25,921 --> 00:40:29,421
What they want the public
to believe is

666
00:40:29,488 --> 00:40:31,321
that a sane man‐‐

667
00:40:31,388 --> 00:40:33,855
and they charged premeditation,
mind you‐‐

668
00:40:33,921 --> 00:40:36,655
sat down and <i>planned</i>

669
00:40:36,721 --> 00:40:38,755
to perform such an act.

670
00:40:38,821 --> 00:40:41,321
I don't believe anybody in
this country would believe that.

671
00:40:41,388 --> 00:40:43,921
That a sane man would do this.

672
00:40:54,155 --> 00:40:56,655
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>You can't explain this</i>

673
00:40:56,721 --> 00:41:00,455
<i>horrendous event logically,</i>

674
00:41:00,521 --> 00:41:05,088
because if indeed
MacDonald did it,

675
00:41:05,155 --> 00:41:08,755
he was in no frame of mind
to be logical.

676
00:41:08,821 --> 00:41:10,955
<i>I believe</i>

677
00:41:11,021 --> 00:41:14,321
<i>if the story fits</i>
<i>the physical evidence,</i>

678
00:41:14,388 --> 00:41:16,521
then you probably
have a good story.

679
00:41:16,588 --> 00:41:18,888
If it doesn't fit
the physical evidence,

680
00:41:18,955 --> 00:41:20,721
then it's a loser.

681
00:41:20,788 --> 00:41:23,388
Jeff's never fit that evidence.

682
00:41:23,455 --> 00:41:25,421
(doors open)

683
00:41:25,488 --> 00:41:27,421
ATTORNEY:
The government calls

684
00:41:27,488 --> 00:41:29,755
Specialist Fourth Class
Craig Chamberlain.

685
00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:31,621
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>There is only one story</i>

686
00:41:31,688 --> 00:41:33,455
<i>that fit that evidence.</i>

687
00:41:34,755 --> 00:41:36,255
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>I was called in</i>

688
00:41:36,321 --> 00:41:38,088
to the head of the lab and said,

689
00:41:38,155 --> 00:41:39,555
"There's a murder case
at Fort Bragg.

690
00:41:39,621 --> 00:41:42,855
We need you to go there
as a member of a team."

691
00:41:46,488 --> 00:41:49,921
<i>Probably the most important</i>
<i>evidence was that</i>

692
00:41:49,988 --> 00:41:51,955
each member
of the group of four

693
00:41:52,021 --> 00:41:54,321
in that family had
a different blood type.

694
00:41:55,821 --> 00:41:59,921
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>Jeff had B blood,</i>

695
00:41:59,988 --> 00:42:02,788
<i>Colette had A blood,</i>

696
00:42:02,855 --> 00:42:05,988
<i>Kimberley had AB blood,</i>

697
00:42:06,055 --> 00:42:08,888
<i>and Kristen had O blood.</i>

698
00:42:08,955 --> 00:42:11,455
<i>So you could trace</i>

699
00:42:11,521 --> 00:42:15,021
<i>where everybody's blood was</i>
<i>in that unit.</i>

700
00:42:16,888 --> 00:42:18,255
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>MacDonald had said</i>

701
00:42:18,321 --> 00:42:21,188
<i>he was assaulted</i>
<i>in the living room.</i>

702
00:42:23,055 --> 00:42:25,488
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>Do you remember where blood</i>
<i>was found in the living room?</i>

703
00:42:25,555 --> 00:42:27,088
It just wasn't there.

704
00:42:27,155 --> 00:42:29,888
<i>But there was a massive amount</i>
<i>of blood</i>

705
00:42:29,955 --> 00:42:34,155
<i>in the master bedroom</i>
<i>where Colette's body was found.</i>

706
00:42:35,688 --> 00:42:39,055
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>Our theory was</i>
<i>that an argument ensued</i>

707
00:42:39,121 --> 00:42:41,821
<i>in the master bedroom</i>
<i>with Colette.</i>

708
00:42:41,888 --> 00:42:45,655
<i>That argument</i>

709
00:42:45,721 --> 00:42:47,155
begins to escalate.

710
00:42:49,255 --> 00:42:52,621
<i>At some point,</i>
<i>MacDonald picks up this stick,</i>

711
00:42:52,688 --> 00:42:54,588
<i>and he starts beating her.</i>

712
00:43:00,955 --> 00:43:02,255
<i>KIMBERLY (echoing):</i>
<i>Daddy! Daddy!</i>

713
00:43:02,321 --> 00:43:04,588
<i>We believe,</i>
<i>while this is going on,</i>

714
00:43:04,655 --> 00:43:08,921
<i>Kimberley, his older daughter,</i>
<i>gets out of bed.</i>

715
00:43:08,988 --> 00:43:11,988
<i>He has the stick in his hand.</i>

716
00:43:12,055 --> 00:43:13,821
He swings it around,

717
00:43:13,888 --> 00:43:16,955
and it hits her...

718
00:43:17,021 --> 00:43:19,855
right across the side
of the head,

719
00:43:19,921 --> 00:43:22,421
<i>crushes her skull.</i>

720
00:43:22,488 --> 00:43:25,421
<i>I mean, knocked it in</i>
<i>a couple of inches.</i>

721
00:43:28,521 --> 00:43:32,455
<i>At this point,</i>
<i>he is a physician.</i>

722
00:43:32,521 --> 00:43:36,321
He knows
she is either going to die,

723
00:43:36,388 --> 00:43:39,421
or she is going to have serious,
serious consequences

724
00:43:39,488 --> 00:43:41,055
of that wound.

725
00:43:46,755 --> 00:43:49,188
<i>I believe he takes Kimberley</i>

726
00:43:49,255 --> 00:43:51,455
<i>back to her bedroom.</i>

727
00:43:53,755 --> 00:43:55,288
ATTORNEY:
Specialist Chamberlain,

728
00:43:55,355 --> 00:43:58,221
I see that you have drawn
two oblongs on this picture,

729
00:43:58,288 --> 00:44:00,221
and they seem
to be labeled "AB."

730
00:44:00,288 --> 00:44:03,188
<i>Would you tell us</i>
<i>what that means?</i>

731
00:44:03,255 --> 00:44:05,021
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>That means I determined</i>

732
00:44:05,088 --> 00:44:07,988
<i>there was AB blood</i>
<i>within these areas.</i>

733
00:44:08,055 --> 00:44:10,121
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>That's Kimberley's blood</i>

734
00:44:10,188 --> 00:44:13,055
<i>in the entrance</i>
<i>to the master bedroom.</i>

735
00:44:19,355 --> 00:44:21,021
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>Kristy's bed‐‐</i>

736
00:44:21,088 --> 00:44:22,888
<i>do you remember</i>
<i>how much blood was there?</i>

737
00:44:22,955 --> 00:44:25,488
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>There was a lot of blood</i>
<i>on the bed clothing.</i>

738
00:44:25,555 --> 00:44:29,655
<i>The sheets that had Colette's</i>
<i>type A blood indicated on it.</i>

739
00:44:29,721 --> 00:44:35,188
<i>It was like, "Why is Colette's</i>
<i>blood in the kids' room?"</i>

740
00:44:38,088 --> 00:44:40,021
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>At some point,</i>

741
00:44:40,088 --> 00:44:42,888
<i>Colette goes</i>
<i>into Kristen's room</i>

742
00:44:42,955 --> 00:44:45,221
<i>as though she were attempting</i>

743
00:44:45,288 --> 00:44:49,021
<i>to protect her youngest child,</i>

744
00:44:49,088 --> 00:44:53,555
<i>and Jeff hits her in the head.</i>

745
00:44:53,621 --> 00:44:56,355
<i>She falls, and she bleeds</i>

746
00:44:56,421 --> 00:44:59,921
<i>all over the top part</i>
<i>of the bed.</i>

747
00:45:13,821 --> 00:45:18,021
<i>Jeff's got to figure out,</i>
<i>what does he do now?</i>

748
00:45:22,721 --> 00:45:24,055
(camera shutter clicks)

749
00:45:24,121 --> 00:45:26,721
<i>Under the table</i>
<i>in the living room,</i>

750
00:45:26,788 --> 00:45:29,421
<i>an</i> Esquire <i>magazine was found.</i>

751
00:45:32,121 --> 00:45:34,321
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>There was type AB</i>

752
00:45:34,388 --> 00:45:37,355
blood on the edge
of the, uh, magazine.

753
00:45:37,421 --> 00:45:43,188
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>How did AB blood get</i>
<i>into the magazine?</i>

754
00:45:43,255 --> 00:45:46,455
It's Kimberley's blood.
She sure didn't put it there.

755
00:45:48,388 --> 00:45:52,421
<i>In that magazine was an article</i>
<i>about the Manson killings,</i>

756
00:45:52,488 --> 00:45:56,988
<i>including the word "pig"</i>
<i>written in blood.</i>

757
00:45:57,055 --> 00:45:59,321
<i>The theory was that</i>

758
00:45:59,388 --> 00:46:03,588
<i>Jeff consulted</i>
<i>the</i> Esquire <i>magazine,</i>

759
00:46:03,655 --> 00:46:06,721
<i>and he says, "I got it.</i>

760
00:46:06,788 --> 00:46:08,721
"A bunch of hippies came in.

761
00:46:08,788 --> 00:46:11,555
But wait a minute."

762
00:46:11,621 --> 00:46:13,321
<i>He can't tell them</i>

763
00:46:13,388 --> 00:46:16,455
<i>that some hippies came in</i>
<i>and just beat up two of them.</i>

764
00:46:18,288 --> 00:46:21,155
<i>He goes back</i>
<i>into Kristen's room,</i>

765
00:46:21,221 --> 00:46:24,055
<i>and using a knife,</i>

766
00:46:24,121 --> 00:46:26,888
<i>he stabs her.</i>

767
00:46:31,588 --> 00:46:32,555
(blood dripping)

768
00:46:32,621 --> 00:46:37,088
<i>We know she was awake,</i>
<i>because Kristen</i>

769
00:46:37,155 --> 00:46:39,921
had wounds to her hands.

770
00:46:45,421 --> 00:46:49,455
<i>Then he stabs his wife</i>
<i>repeatedly with</i>

771
00:46:49,521 --> 00:46:50,921
the ice pick.

772
00:46:53,221 --> 00:46:57,621
<i>And then he staged "pig"</i>
<i>on the headboard.</i>

773
00:46:57,688 --> 00:47:00,655
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>Written on, uh, the headboard</i>

774
00:47:00,721 --> 00:47:03,288
<i>was "P‐I‐G."</i>

775
00:47:03,355 --> 00:47:05,155
No fingerprints involved
in that.

776
00:47:05,221 --> 00:47:07,821
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>We found fragments</i>

777
00:47:07,888 --> 00:47:10,421
<i>of surgical gloves</i>
<i>in the bedroom.</i>

778
00:47:14,388 --> 00:47:16,255
No.

779
00:47:17,321 --> 00:47:19,421
<i>We found B blood in the kitchen</i>

780
00:47:19,488 --> 00:47:21,555
<i>on the floor.</i>

781
00:47:21,621 --> 00:47:24,588
<i>We look in the cabinet</i>
<i>under the kitchen sink.</i>

782
00:47:26,488 --> 00:47:29,021
There was a whole package
of surgical gloves.

783
00:47:31,288 --> 00:47:35,821
<i>That has to be MacDonald.</i>

784
00:47:35,888 --> 00:47:37,888
<i>Unless there's somebody else</i>
<i>in there bleeding,</i>

785
00:47:37,955 --> 00:47:39,555
<i>and his story doesn't have</i>

786
00:47:39,621 --> 00:47:41,455
any of them bleeding.

787
00:47:42,555 --> 00:47:45,221
<i>Captain MacDonald</i>
<i>had a laceration</i>

788
00:47:45,288 --> 00:47:48,721
<i>between his ribs</i>
<i>that resulted</i>

789
00:47:48,788 --> 00:47:49,988
in a collapsed lung.

790
00:47:50,055 --> 00:47:52,021
<i>CHAMBERLAIN:</i>
<i>In the bathroom,</i>

791
00:47:52,088 --> 00:47:55,021
<i>there was blood drippings</i>
<i>around the sink.</i>

792
00:47:55,088 --> 00:47:57,255
<i>It was type B blood,</i>

793
00:47:57,321 --> 00:48:01,021
<i>which was</i>
<i>Jeffrey MacDonald's blood type.</i>

794
00:48:01,088 --> 00:48:03,755
<i>SOMERS:</i>
<i>I think he inflicted that wound</i>

795
00:48:03,821 --> 00:48:07,188
<i>on himself very carefully.</i>

796
00:48:09,321 --> 00:48:11,788
<i>And that is essentially the way</i>

797
00:48:11,855 --> 00:48:15,588
<i>in which Jeffrey MacDonald</i>
<i>became a murderer.</i>

798
00:48:38,988 --> 00:48:41,188
‐(siren wailing)
‐(indistinct radio chatter)

799
00:49:53,655 --> 00:49:55,355
When we first started
getting interviewed

800
00:49:55,421 --> 00:49:58,688
before the Article 32,
I bring the girl up,

801
00:49:58,755 --> 00:50:02,588
and they're like, "What girl?"
I said, "The girl I saw."

802
00:50:10,621 --> 00:50:12,055
(laughs softly)

803
00:50:12,121 --> 00:50:16,188
I got to say, I thought...

804
00:50:19,088 --> 00:50:22,388
...excuse my language‐‐
bullshit.

805
00:50:22,455 --> 00:50:24,388
Bullshit.

806
00:50:24,455 --> 00:50:27,055
Mica, at that point,

807
00:50:27,121 --> 00:50:30,855
sounded like he wanted to be
an investigative hero.

808
00:50:34,988 --> 00:50:37,288
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>I knew what I saw.</i>

809
00:50:37,355 --> 00:50:38,255
<i>I figured,</i>

810
00:50:38,321 --> 00:50:40,155
it's gonna come up
sooner or later.

811
00:50:43,055 --> 00:50:46,488
<i>So I went to the defense</i>
<i>and I told 'em.</i>

812
00:50:46,555 --> 00:50:51,521
<i>Bernie Segal says, "I'm gonna</i>
<i>put you back on the stand."</i>

813
00:50:51,588 --> 00:50:53,321
SEGAL:
Specialist Mica,

814
00:50:53,388 --> 00:50:56,055
<i>you're the same witness</i>
<i>who was previously called</i>

815
00:50:56,121 --> 00:50:58,755
<i>and testified</i>
<i>in these proceedings?</i>

816
00:50:58,821 --> 00:51:01,188
Yes, sir.

817
00:51:01,255 --> 00:51:04,455
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>Does that drawing resemble</i>

818
00:51:04,521 --> 00:51:07,655
<i>any person that you believe</i>
<i>to have seen?</i>

819
00:51:07,721 --> 00:51:10,088
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>It could, sir.</i>

820
00:51:10,155 --> 00:51:12,955
SEGAL:
Who do you believe
it could represent?

821
00:51:14,988 --> 00:51:19,255
<i>MICA:</i>
<i>Possibly the girl I saw</i>
<i>on the corner that night.</i>

822
00:51:20,455 --> 00:51:22,155
(reporters clamoring)

823
00:51:22,221 --> 00:51:26,555
SEGAL:
A woman who had been uncovered
by myself was in fact a person

824
00:51:26,621 --> 00:51:28,521
whom the civilian authorities
should investigate

825
00:51:28,588 --> 00:51:31,088
for complicity in the murders
of Dr. MacDonald's family

826
00:51:31,155 --> 00:51:32,521
and assaulting him.

827
00:51:36,555 --> 00:51:38,488
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>It was on the headlines</i>
<i>that day.</i>

828
00:51:38,555 --> 00:51:41,221
<i>And people were</i>
<i>sending us letters</i>

829
00:51:41,288 --> 00:51:42,888
and‐and calling us on the phone.

830
00:51:42,955 --> 00:51:45,521
And some of them were crazy
and some of them were right

831
00:51:45,588 --> 00:51:48,155
on the money and‐and were trying
to be as helpful as they could.

832
00:51:50,888 --> 00:51:54,488
<i>And we came upon</i>
<i>a guy named Posey.</i>

833
00:51:54,555 --> 00:52:00,388
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>The defense calls</i>
<i>William Edward Posey.</i>

834
00:52:00,455 --> 00:52:02,655
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>He said that he had</i>
<i>this neighbor</i>

835
00:52:02,721 --> 00:52:05,188
<i>that was strange,</i>
<i>to say the least.</i>

836
00:52:07,455 --> 00:52:10,655
<i>And then, on the night</i>
<i>that the murders took place,</i>

837
00:52:10,721 --> 00:52:12,555
<i>he saw her come in</i>
<i>in the middle of the night</i>

838
00:52:12,621 --> 00:52:14,621
<i>in a Mustang car.</i>

839
00:52:17,321 --> 00:52:19,755
He was getting out of the car
and going to the house.

840
00:52:19,821 --> 00:52:21,988
<i>SEGAL:</i>
<i>Would you describe</i>

841
00:52:22,055 --> 00:52:24,655
<i>what her normal</i>
<i>wearing apparel was?</i>

842
00:52:24,721 --> 00:52:27,288
<i>POSEY:</i>
<i>Well, she had</i>
<i>a big old white floppy hat</i>

843
00:52:27,355 --> 00:52:28,755
that she wore.

844
00:52:28,821 --> 00:52:32,488
<i>And she had a pair of white</i>
<i>boots that she wore a lot.</i>

845
00:52:34,688 --> 00:52:36,521
<i>DOUTHAT:</i>
<i>She fit the description</i>
<i>of the person</i>

846
00:52:36,588 --> 00:52:40,055
that Jeffrey MacDonald
described and Mica described.

847
00:52:40,121 --> 00:52:42,855
<i>Her name was Helena Stoeckley.</i>

848
00:52:46,055 --> 00:52:49,188
All the stuff hanging out there
about Stoeckley...

849
00:52:50,188 --> 00:52:53,121
<i>...everything pointed to her.</i>

850
00:52:53,188 --> 00:52:56,455
<i>What in the world</i>
<i>would somebody be out there</i>

851
00:52:56,521 --> 00:52:59,755
<i>dressed just like the hippie</i>
<i>that MacDonald described,</i>

852
00:52:59,821 --> 00:53:01,321
<i>that had just attacked him?</i>

853
00:53:01,388 --> 00:53:06,288
That‐that really did raise
some interesting questions.

854
00:54:09,288 --> 00:54:11,321
♪♪ ♪♪

855
00:54:23,755 --> 00:54:25,521
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>Now you're waiting</i>
<i>for Colonel Rock</i>

856
00:54:25,588 --> 00:54:27,021
<i>‐to make his decision.</i>
<i>‐DOUTHAT: Mm‐hmm.</i>

857
00:54:27,088 --> 00:54:28,355
<i>SMERLING:</i>
<i>How long did that take?</i>

858
00:54:28,421 --> 00:54:30,055
(exhales)

859
00:54:30,121 --> 00:54:34,021
A month, six weeks?
Uh, it took a while.

860
00:54:34,088 --> 00:54:37,121
<i>We kind of heard it was coming</i>
<i>down, and every now and then,</i>

861
00:54:37,188 --> 00:54:39,521
<i>we'd get a whiff</i>
<i>of what was gonna happen,</i>

862
00:54:39,588 --> 00:54:41,255
<i>but we didn't know.</i>

863
00:54:44,255 --> 00:54:46,288
<i>Colonel Rock</i>
<i>had been given a job</i>

864
00:54:46,355 --> 00:54:49,155
<i>that was the headlines</i>
<i>of every paper,</i>

865
00:54:49,221 --> 00:54:51,088
<i>and he was gonna get it right.</i>

866
00:54:52,421 --> 00:54:54,355
SMERLING:
Can you read it for me?

867
00:54:54,421 --> 00:54:56,921
Yeah. Yeah, well, sure,
I can read it.

868
00:54:56,988 --> 00:54:59,021
Um...

869
00:54:59,088 --> 00:55:01,221
"High security report

870
00:55:01,288 --> 00:55:03,121
"on the meeting
between Colonel Rock

871
00:55:03,188 --> 00:55:06,055
General Flanagan
and Captain Beale."

872
00:55:16,921 --> 00:55:19,121
<i>I remember Flanagan was</i>

873
00:55:19,188 --> 00:55:21,988
the commanding general
of Special Forces,

874
00:55:22,055 --> 00:55:25,488
<i>and Colonel Rock, his job</i>
<i>was to make a recommendation</i>

875
00:55:25,555 --> 00:55:27,721
<i>as to whether this case</i>
<i>ought to go forward</i>

876
00:55:27,788 --> 00:55:30,221
<i>with an actual trial.</i>

877
00:55:30,288 --> 00:55:32,888
Must have been
an exchange between them.

878
00:55:32,955 --> 00:55:37,355
"Rock offered the statement
that 'I searched high and low

879
00:55:37,421 --> 00:55:39,755
"'for points that show
Jeff did it,

880
00:55:39,821 --> 00:55:43,955
but they ain't there.'"

881
00:55:44,921 --> 00:55:46,188
"Flanagan said,

882
00:55:46,255 --> 00:55:52,055
"'But what about
the grass and mud?'

883
00:55:52,121 --> 00:55:58,121
Rock said, '14 MPs hadn't
carried any in, either.'"

884
00:56:00,588 --> 00:56:05,555
<i>"Flanagan said, 'But what about</i>
<i>the coffee table?'</i>

885
00:56:05,621 --> 00:56:09,188
<i>Rock recounted the entire</i>
<i>sequence of events."</i>

886
00:56:12,355 --> 00:56:15,155
"Flanagan asked if there was
any evidence for anyone else

887
00:56:15,221 --> 00:56:18,921
being in the house."

888
00:56:20,221 --> 00:56:24,921
<i>"Rock covered all the points,</i>
<i>and also Posey."</i>

889
00:56:26,421 --> 00:56:29,755
"'Is there anything else
the government can do now

890
00:56:29,821 --> 00:56:33,255
"to solidify the case?'

891
00:56:33,321 --> 00:56:35,755
Rock said,
'No, you shot your wad.'"

892
00:56:35,821 --> 00:56:37,021
(laughs softly)

893
00:56:37,088 --> 00:56:39,088
"Rock then said,

894
00:56:39,155 --> 00:56:43,188
"'The Army had already spent
large sums,

895
00:56:43,255 --> 00:56:44,555
"'and to spend any more money

896
00:56:44,621 --> 00:56:48,621
would make the Army
look like fools.'"

897
00:56:53,555 --> 00:56:54,921
Yeah.

898
00:56:55,755 --> 00:56:57,321
Yeah.

899
00:56:57,388 --> 00:57:01,455
No, I don't. But that doesn't
mean it didn't happen.

900
00:57:06,321 --> 00:57:09,821
<i>MALLEY:</i>
<i>This case was a big deal.</i>

901
00:57:09,888 --> 00:57:11,855
<i>And I think the Army thought,</i>

902
00:57:11,921 --> 00:57:13,855
"We got to wrap this up quickly.

903
00:57:13,921 --> 00:57:15,188
"Um, it's‐‐ it‐‐ You know,

904
00:57:15,255 --> 00:57:17,755
"CBS Evening News knows
about it,

905
00:57:17,821 --> 00:57:19,888
and that's not what we want."

906
00:57:19,955 --> 00:57:21,455
<i>CRONKITE:</i>
<i>The Army today</i>

907
00:57:21,521 --> 00:57:23,321
<i>cleared Captain</i>
<i>Jeffrey MacDonald,</i>

908
00:57:23,388 --> 00:57:25,788
<i>a Green Beret physician,</i>
<i>of charges that he murdered</i>

909
00:57:25,855 --> 00:57:28,588
his wife and two young
daughters nine months ago

910
00:57:28,655 --> 00:57:30,888
<i>in their Fort Bragg,</i>
<i>North Carolina apartment.</i>

911
00:57:30,955 --> 00:57:34,588
<i>The Army said that five weeks</i>
<i>of closed‐door hearings had not</i>

912
00:57:34,655 --> 00:57:37,321
<i>produced sufficient evidence</i>
<i>to support the charges.</i>

913
00:57:37,388 --> 00:57:42,421
We have all of these myths
about our system.

914
00:57:42,488 --> 00:57:45,121
How it works,

915
00:57:45,188 --> 00:57:48,455
the importance
of a level playing field.

916
00:57:49,821 --> 00:57:54,188
<i>Fairness, equality</i>
<i>before the law.</i>

917
00:57:55,988 --> 00:57:57,421
<i>Here you have a tangled mess</i>

918
00:57:57,488 --> 00:58:02,655
of people all trying
to figure out

919
00:58:02,721 --> 00:58:05,121
<i>what's real</i>

920
00:58:05,188 --> 00:58:08,955
<i>and what's make believe.</i>

921
00:58:09,021 --> 00:58:15,088
<i>What really happened versus</i>
<i>what we think really happened.</i>

922
00:58:18,488 --> 00:58:21,121
<i>Why the fascination</i>
<i>with criminal trials?</i>

923
00:58:21,188 --> 00:58:24,555
Because it's an attempt
to grab ahold of the world,

924
00:58:24,621 --> 00:58:29,221
to figure out what's really
out there, to find truth,

925
00:58:29,288 --> 00:58:33,621
to find something that you can
grab ahold of and shake.

926
00:58:33,688 --> 00:58:35,688
<i>After hearing the decision,</i>
<i>Captain MacDonald said</i>

927
00:58:35,755 --> 00:58:38,121
<i>he wanted to get out</i>
<i>of the Army, start a new life.</i>

928
00:58:38,188 --> 00:58:41,221
<i>MacDONALD (over TV):</i>
<i>I have said, in the future,</i>
<i>that more investigation</i>

929
00:58:41,288 --> 00:58:43,688
<i>will be done</i>
<i>into certain suspects</i>

930
00:58:43,755 --> 00:58:46,888
<i>that were brought out</i>
<i>by us in the hearing.</i>

931
00:58:46,955 --> 00:58:49,521
<i>REPORTER:</i>
<i>Do you plan to do</i>
<i>any investigating of your own?</i>

932
00:58:49,588 --> 00:58:51,821
<i>Uh, no comment.</i>

933
00:58:51,888 --> 00:58:53,788
<i>HELENA:</i>
<i>Dear Kathy,</i>

934
00:58:53,855 --> 00:58:57,021
<i>today on the news, I heard that</i>
<i>they had definitely dropped</i>

935
00:58:57,088 --> 00:58:59,388
<i>the charges against MacDonald.</i>

936
00:58:59,455 --> 00:59:01,188
<i>Remember how I didn't</i>
<i>have an alibi</i>

937
00:59:01,255 --> 00:59:03,321
<i>for the night of the murder?</i>

938
00:59:04,955 --> 00:59:07,055
<i>Believe me,</i>

939
00:59:07,121 --> 00:59:10,455
<i>I am in deep, deep trouble.</i>

940
00:59:11,655 --> 00:59:15,355
<i>Love and peace. Helena.</i>

941
00:59:19,821 --> 00:59:24,121
Captioned by
Media Access Group at WGBH
access.wgbh.org