1 00:00:10,644 --> 00:00:13,980 ANNOUNCER: This is the evening edition of 2 00:00:14,047 --> 00:00:16,817 CBS News with Walter Cronkite. 3 00:00:16,883 --> 00:00:20,420 Captain Jeffrey MacDonald is a man under a cloud. 4 00:00:20,486 --> 00:00:23,223 He lost his family under horrible circumstances, 5 00:00:23,289 --> 00:00:24,758 and he's fighting for his honor. 6 00:00:24,825 --> 00:00:27,293 His ordeal began last winter at his residence 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,195 in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. 8 00:00:29,262 --> 00:00:31,231 Bob Schieffer has the story. 9 00:00:31,297 --> 00:00:33,099 It appeared to be a grim rewrite 10 00:00:33,166 --> 00:00:35,401 of the Sharon Tate murders in California. 11 00:00:35,468 --> 00:00:37,370 MacDonald told a bizarre story: 12 00:00:37,437 --> 00:00:38,939 three young men and a woman had 13 00:00:39,005 --> 00:00:41,441 attacked the family for no apparent reason. 14 00:00:41,508 --> 00:00:44,010 On May 1, the Army charged him with murder. 15 00:00:44,077 --> 00:00:45,512 Finally, in late October, 16 00:00:45,579 --> 00:00:48,048 the charges against the captain were dropped. 17 00:00:56,523 --> 00:00:58,124 MORRIS: Jeffrey MacDonald 18 00:00:58,191 --> 00:01:00,426 goes through this Article 32 hearing, 19 00:01:00,493 --> 00:01:04,330 which was an extensive hearing. 20 00:01:04,397 --> 00:01:05,666 It's... 21 00:01:05,732 --> 00:01:08,268 a‐a massive transcript. 22 00:01:08,334 --> 00:01:11,905 Many, many, many witnesses called. 23 00:01:11,972 --> 00:01:14,007 Colonel Rock says that 24 00:01:14,074 --> 00:01:15,509 the charges are not true. 25 00:01:15,576 --> 00:01:17,844 SCHIEFFER: The Army has not made public the report 26 00:01:17,911 --> 00:01:20,847 of the investigating officer, Colonel Warren V. Rock. 27 00:01:22,549 --> 00:01:24,585 Meanwhile, the FBI in North Carolina 28 00:01:24,651 --> 00:01:26,052 has notified MacDonald's relatives 29 00:01:26,119 --> 00:01:27,521 that they are not investigating. 30 00:01:27,588 --> 00:01:31,224 ‐(phone rings) ‐But still unanswered is who did it. 31 00:01:31,291 --> 00:01:33,827 Bob Schieffer, CBS News, New York. 32 00:01:33,894 --> 00:01:37,363 MORRIS: Jeffrey, I believe, at that point, 33 00:01:37,430 --> 00:01:38,832 is interested in‐‐ 34 00:01:38,899 --> 00:01:40,934 however you want to describe it‐‐ 35 00:01:41,001 --> 00:01:44,571 putting this behind him. 36 00:02:18,739 --> 00:02:22,008 MORRIS: Well, what's really interesting about this case 37 00:02:22,075 --> 00:02:24,377 is... that at that point, 38 00:02:24,444 --> 00:02:26,947 you‐you would think it's over with. 39 00:02:27,013 --> 00:02:29,315 It's just beginning. 40 00:02:36,857 --> 00:02:39,092 The wife and two young daughters of an Army doctor 41 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:42,696 were found dead in their home in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. 42 00:02:42,763 --> 00:02:44,998 SAM DONALDSON: You may remember the crime back in 1970. 43 00:02:45,065 --> 00:02:46,967 One of America's most sensational murder cases. 44 00:02:47,033 --> 00:02:48,468 One of the most bizarre murder cases. 45 00:02:48,535 --> 00:02:50,571 DAN RATHER: The most complicated murder case 46 00:02:50,637 --> 00:02:52,205 ‐in history. ‐MacDonald says the murderers 47 00:02:52,272 --> 00:02:54,608 were three men and a woman shouting, 48 00:02:54,675 --> 00:02:57,944 "Acid is great. Kill all the pigs." 49 00:02:58,011 --> 00:03:00,647 It's a baffling story the more you begin to look into it. 50 00:03:00,714 --> 00:03:02,549 Jeffrey MacDonald's life became the subject of a book. 51 00:03:02,616 --> 00:03:04,518 BARBARA WALTERS: A popular miniseries. 52 00:03:04,585 --> 00:03:07,253 A television movie called Fatal Vision. 53 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,455 REPORTER: The best‐seller portrayed MacDonald 54 00:03:09,523 --> 00:03:10,657 as a cold‐blooded killer. 55 00:03:10,724 --> 00:03:12,593 REPORTER 2: Today, MacDonald was sentenced 56 00:03:12,659 --> 00:03:14,360 to three life terms in prison. 57 00:03:15,762 --> 00:03:18,565 MAN: Something really, really bad happened here. 58 00:03:18,632 --> 00:03:20,166 It was a miscarriage of justice. 59 00:03:20,233 --> 00:03:22,703 I cannot overcome Fatal Vision. 60 00:03:22,769 --> 00:03:24,605 MORRIS: What happens when a narrative 61 00:03:24,671 --> 00:03:26,940 takes the place of reality? 62 00:03:27,007 --> 00:03:29,810 It's almost as if nothing really happened in history 63 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:33,947 unless it has been recorded in a movie 64 00:03:34,014 --> 00:03:35,415 or in a television series. 65 00:03:35,481 --> 00:03:37,684 WOMAN: A new book by acclaimed author and filmmaker 66 00:03:37,751 --> 00:03:39,586 Errol Morris says that the case 67 00:03:39,653 --> 00:03:42,188 may be more complicated than previously thought. 68 00:03:42,255 --> 00:03:44,958 MacDONALD: I did not hurt my wife or my children. 69 00:03:45,025 --> 00:03:46,693 HELENA: That evening I was wearing 70 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,795 a blonde wig and a floppy hat. 71 00:03:48,862 --> 00:03:51,798 ‐MAN: An innocent man is in jail today. ‐MILDRED: The man is guilty 72 00:03:51,865 --> 00:03:53,900 ‐as can be. ‐I am innocent. 73 00:03:53,967 --> 00:03:55,836 He's lucky I haven't gone out and killed him. 74 00:03:55,902 --> 00:03:57,971 MacDONALD: I am not that monster. 75 00:03:58,038 --> 00:04:00,240 ♪♪ ♪♪ 76 00:04:02,809 --> 00:04:05,278 ♪♪ ♪♪ 77 00:04:11,184 --> 00:04:12,385 KEELER: I was covering the town 78 00:04:12,452 --> 00:04:13,820 of Brookhaven. Freddy and Mildred lived 79 00:04:13,887 --> 00:04:15,622 within the confines of the town of Brookhaven, 80 00:04:15,689 --> 00:04:18,258 so I got sent to cover the story. 81 00:04:21,928 --> 00:04:23,630 I went into this house. It was not 82 00:04:23,697 --> 00:04:25,632 the kind of house that I would, like, live in. 83 00:04:25,699 --> 00:04:29,135 Everything looked like it was from a museum store. 84 00:04:29,202 --> 00:04:30,771 Mildred always said that 85 00:04:30,837 --> 00:04:34,307 she liked beautiful things, and she did. 86 00:04:35,676 --> 00:04:38,712 I sat with the two of them and heard them out. 87 00:04:39,613 --> 00:04:42,015 (on recording): Okay, hi. 88 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,154 KEELER: Mildred was 89 00:04:48,221 --> 00:04:49,956 sort of birdlike. 90 00:04:50,023 --> 00:04:51,692 Very nervous. 91 00:04:51,758 --> 00:04:53,794 She was a sort of frail‐looking person on the outside, 92 00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:57,130 but she was pretty steely inside. 93 00:04:57,197 --> 00:04:59,299 Freddy, I could get along with a lot better. 94 00:04:59,365 --> 00:05:00,867 He was very solid. 95 00:05:02,836 --> 00:05:05,839 He was in the Army. You know, he grew up in Canada. 96 00:05:05,906 --> 00:05:08,575 He was a paratrooper and all this kind of stuff. 97 00:05:10,143 --> 00:05:12,045 His name, as I understand it, 98 00:05:12,112 --> 00:05:13,647 in Arabic means "butcher." 99 00:05:40,507 --> 00:05:42,375 We thought a bunch of hippies had done all this. 100 00:05:42,442 --> 00:05:44,077 We couldn't understand why the government 101 00:05:44,144 --> 00:05:46,713 wa‐wasn't catching them. 102 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:49,683 STEVENSON: Freddy showed me a pair of shoes. 103 00:05:49,750 --> 00:05:52,018 He said, "Bobby, look at the bottom." 104 00:05:52,085 --> 00:05:54,788 I've worn out the shoe leather on these pair of shoes 105 00:05:54,855 --> 00:05:57,057 creeping through the halls of Congress, 106 00:05:57,123 --> 00:05:58,725 trying to garner support 107 00:05:58,792 --> 00:06:02,428 for what needed to be done. 108 00:06:03,597 --> 00:06:05,231 FREDDY: I accused the Army 109 00:06:05,298 --> 00:06:07,100 of every blunder that they made 110 00:06:07,167 --> 00:06:09,870 in the original investigation. 111 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:15,842 And I personally delivered a copy by hand 112 00:06:15,909 --> 00:06:19,112 to every congressman and every senator in the country. 113 00:06:20,446 --> 00:06:22,716 (phone ringing) 114 00:06:48,374 --> 00:06:49,843 KEELER: Uh‐huh. 115 00:06:51,011 --> 00:06:54,014 I am asking the help of Congress, 116 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,817 and specifically Congressman Lowenstein, 117 00:06:56,883 --> 00:06:59,352 in the redress of some of these grievances. 118 00:06:59,419 --> 00:07:03,456 There's been an inexcusable ineptitude in the conduct 119 00:07:03,524 --> 00:07:06,459 of the investigation by the Army. 120 00:07:18,038 --> 00:07:20,874 I think that we will have a reopening of the investigation 121 00:07:20,941 --> 00:07:24,044 into the murders of my wife and two children. 122 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:25,912 Thank you. 123 00:07:32,152 --> 00:07:35,656 FREDDY: If somebody kills your daughter and two grandchildren, 124 00:07:35,722 --> 00:07:37,991 are you supposed to sit back 125 00:07:38,058 --> 00:07:40,226 and do nothing about it? 126 00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:52,138 ♪♪ ♪♪ 127 00:07:57,277 --> 00:07:59,245 Good morning, everybody. 128 00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:02,849 What we intend to do is take you back in time a little bit 129 00:08:02,916 --> 00:08:06,052 and discuss the MacDonald murder case. 130 00:08:10,691 --> 00:08:13,126 MacDonald's father‐in‐law, Freddy Kassab, 131 00:08:13,193 --> 00:08:15,829 kept petitioning the Army and Congress 132 00:08:15,896 --> 00:08:17,864 to have the case reinvestigated, 133 00:08:17,931 --> 00:08:20,033 pointing out that the government screwed up the case 134 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:22,168 to begin with, and that the real 135 00:08:22,235 --> 00:08:24,470 perpetrators of the crime could never be found. 136 00:08:24,538 --> 00:08:26,940 And of course, at this time, the Kassabs thought 137 00:08:27,007 --> 00:08:28,942 the real perpetrators of the crime were the three GIs 138 00:08:29,009 --> 00:08:31,512 and the Caucasian female. 139 00:08:34,147 --> 00:08:36,482 That's when we came down out of Washington 140 00:08:36,550 --> 00:08:38,051 to investigate the investigators, 141 00:08:38,118 --> 00:08:41,822 and why nobody went after these hippies. 142 00:08:43,056 --> 00:08:44,591 PICKERING: Late 1970, I was 143 00:08:44,658 --> 00:08:46,593 informed that I'd be going to Fort Bragg 144 00:08:46,660 --> 00:08:48,662 to join the reinvestigation team. 145 00:08:51,231 --> 00:08:54,735 It's either we make the case or we don't make the case. 146 00:08:54,801 --> 00:08:56,837 And if we don't make the case, then all the criticism 147 00:08:56,903 --> 00:09:00,140 previously received about our incompetence 148 00:09:00,206 --> 00:09:03,376 to solve the murder‐‐ we‐we would bear that. 149 00:09:03,443 --> 00:09:05,746 (phone ringing) 150 00:09:05,812 --> 00:09:08,982 KEARNS: We decided we had to get Freddy and Mildred Kassab on our side. 151 00:09:09,049 --> 00:09:11,184 They're the ones that wrote to Congress 152 00:09:11,251 --> 00:09:14,254 and said the Army screwed up this crime scene. We needed 153 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,222 the Kassabs to shut up. 154 00:09:16,289 --> 00:09:18,959 Just calm down, let us do the investigation. 155 00:09:19,025 --> 00:09:20,694 We'll find out who did it. 156 00:09:20,761 --> 00:09:23,329 (phone ringing) 157 00:09:29,570 --> 00:09:32,272 SMERLING: Why was Freddy recording all his calls? 158 00:09:32,338 --> 00:09:33,707 He was suspicious. 159 00:09:33,774 --> 00:09:36,810 Until Freddy became completely sure 160 00:09:36,877 --> 00:09:40,246 who was on whose side, 161 00:09:40,313 --> 00:09:41,782 he didn't trust them. 162 00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:01,267 We identified at least 163 00:10:01,334 --> 00:10:04,671 240 investigative leads. 164 00:10:04,738 --> 00:10:06,873 And I had more darned floppy hats 165 00:10:06,940 --> 00:10:08,909 and boots in that evidence room. 166 00:10:08,975 --> 00:10:12,145 Let's take the first one, Helena Stoeckley. 167 00:10:14,314 --> 00:10:15,749 GADDIS: In 1971, 168 00:10:15,816 --> 00:10:19,520 I met Helena Stoeckley while... 169 00:10:19,586 --> 00:10:20,954 arresting her. 170 00:10:23,990 --> 00:10:26,927 We were on patrol one night in Nashville. 171 00:10:28,228 --> 00:10:30,564 We just happened to see this woman. 172 00:10:30,631 --> 00:10:34,635 She wore this black cape with a red lining... 173 00:10:35,969 --> 00:10:38,672 ...a wig and a floppy hat. 174 00:10:38,739 --> 00:10:41,274 She'd just sort of float around. 175 00:10:43,777 --> 00:10:45,011 I caught her 176 00:10:45,078 --> 00:10:48,014 for possession of drugs. 177 00:10:48,081 --> 00:10:50,183 On the way down to booking, 178 00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:53,319 she said that she was involved in a murder 179 00:10:53,386 --> 00:10:56,523 in Fayetteville, North Carolina. 180 00:10:56,590 --> 00:10:57,991 And she goes into 181 00:10:58,058 --> 00:11:01,862 telling us about the Jeffrey MacDonald murders. 182 00:11:04,965 --> 00:11:07,734 Helena described 183 00:11:07,801 --> 00:11:09,536 the house to a T. 184 00:11:09,603 --> 00:11:13,073 She knew how the doctor was laying on the couch, 185 00:11:13,139 --> 00:11:14,908 where the kids were, what bedroom. 186 00:11:14,975 --> 00:11:16,877 And she gave us names of officers 187 00:11:16,943 --> 00:11:19,846 that she had talked to in Fayetteville. 188 00:11:48,174 --> 00:11:50,911 KEARNS: So we fly a guy in from Washington 189 00:11:50,977 --> 00:11:52,445 to give her a polygraph. 190 00:11:52,513 --> 00:11:54,380 They had polygraph operators there, but we wanted 191 00:11:54,447 --> 00:11:56,249 to use one from our headquarters. 192 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,456 BRISENTINE: I was the director of the Army's 193 00:12:03,524 --> 00:12:05,458 crime record center, which... 194 00:12:05,526 --> 00:12:07,127 included polygraph. 195 00:12:07,193 --> 00:12:10,797 And I was directed by the commander of the agency 196 00:12:10,864 --> 00:12:12,065 to conduct a polygraph 197 00:12:12,132 --> 00:12:15,435 of Helena Stoeckley. 198 00:12:17,904 --> 00:12:19,239 (on recording): Do you remember cutting 199 00:12:19,305 --> 00:12:22,375 or striking any member of the MacDonald family? 200 00:12:22,442 --> 00:12:24,110 No. 201 00:12:24,177 --> 00:12:27,013 BRISENTINE: During our conversation, 202 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,915 she would tell me one minute 203 00:12:28,982 --> 00:12:31,451 that‐that she was there.... 204 00:12:31,518 --> 00:12:32,586 Yes. 205 00:12:32,653 --> 00:12:34,187 ...when the family was killed. 206 00:12:34,254 --> 00:12:37,958 Do you know for sure who cut or struck any member 207 00:12:38,024 --> 00:12:39,492 of the MacDonald family? 208 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:41,995 No. 209 00:12:42,062 --> 00:12:43,697 And then the next minute, she'd tell me, 210 00:12:43,764 --> 00:12:45,465 "No, I‐I wasn't there." 211 00:12:45,532 --> 00:12:48,902 And she was going in and out and, uh, 212 00:12:48,969 --> 00:12:51,772 and then she said, "Well, I'm not really sure." 213 00:12:51,838 --> 00:12:54,708 Do you remember being physically present 214 00:12:54,775 --> 00:12:58,111 when any member of the MacDonald family was cut or struck? 215 00:12:58,178 --> 00:13:00,480 No. 216 00:13:00,547 --> 00:13:04,450 When she said, "No, I wasn't there..." 217 00:13:05,619 --> 00:13:07,554 ...she scores a deception. 218 00:13:09,055 --> 00:13:11,858 She's not telling the truth. 219 00:13:22,235 --> 00:13:23,904 She didn't know whether she was 220 00:13:23,970 --> 00:13:25,438 there or not. 221 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,811 What we have here is a gal who's screwed up. 222 00:13:32,345 --> 00:13:33,680 You could never 223 00:13:33,747 --> 00:13:35,348 call her a liar. 224 00:13:35,415 --> 00:13:38,852 But you can't call her as a truth‐teller, either. 225 00:13:39,853 --> 00:13:42,322 That's the best I can tell you. 226 00:13:42,388 --> 00:13:45,726 Everybody forgets Helena Stoeckley, as you get into here, 227 00:13:45,792 --> 00:13:46,960 she was a doper. 228 00:13:47,027 --> 00:13:49,663 Helena has confessed, 229 00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:51,998 unconfessed, confessed, 230 00:13:52,065 --> 00:13:55,435 unconfessed and confessed. 231 00:13:55,502 --> 00:13:57,671 Helena Stoeckley was not in the crime scene. 232 00:13:57,738 --> 00:14:00,273 (phone rings) 233 00:14:37,644 --> 00:14:40,814 PICKERING: We would frequently meet at the crime scene 234 00:14:40,881 --> 00:14:43,483 and brainstorm the whole scenario. 235 00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:46,820 Walk through the house, walk through the rooms 236 00:14:46,887 --> 00:14:48,989 and talk about what we know. 237 00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:51,224 Every time we pursued a lead, 238 00:14:51,291 --> 00:14:53,226 it just turned us around and directed us 239 00:14:53,293 --> 00:14:55,161 back to Jeffrey MacDonald. 240 00:14:57,030 --> 00:15:00,601 And the physical evidence, uh, the circumstantial evidence, 241 00:15:00,667 --> 00:15:03,136 just kept mounting against him 242 00:15:03,203 --> 00:15:06,306 and contradicted his story of events for that evening. 243 00:15:06,372 --> 00:15:09,475 KEARNS: Now, remember Jeffrey was saying 244 00:15:09,543 --> 00:15:12,879 an itinerant band of hippies selected his house 245 00:15:12,946 --> 00:15:15,448 and intended to kill him. 246 00:15:18,484 --> 00:15:21,254 (whimpers) No. No, no! 247 00:15:27,828 --> 00:15:30,163 KIMBERLY (echoing): Daddy! Daddy! 248 00:15:35,401 --> 00:15:38,539 Remember, in this crime scene nothing was stolen, 249 00:15:38,605 --> 00:15:41,642 there was no forced entry, nobody smoked, 250 00:15:41,708 --> 00:15:44,611 nobody lit a match, nobody used any drugs. 251 00:15:44,678 --> 00:15:46,446 None of this occurred. 252 00:16:07,868 --> 00:16:09,636 KEARNS: Eventually, 253 00:16:09,703 --> 00:16:11,772 you do start to tunnel an investigation. 254 00:16:11,838 --> 00:16:13,974 For those of you in criminal justice, 255 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,576 don't ignore your evidence. 256 00:16:15,642 --> 00:16:17,410 Keep an open mind, but don't ignore it. 257 00:16:17,477 --> 00:16:19,379 And when you get evidence showing that it's MacDonald, 258 00:16:19,445 --> 00:16:22,549 you start going after MacDonald. 259 00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:31,692 (fanfare plays) 260 00:16:31,758 --> 00:16:34,160 ANNOUNCER: The Dick Cavett Show! 261 00:16:39,933 --> 00:16:42,803 (applause continuing) 262 00:16:42,869 --> 00:16:46,673 CAVETT: My next guest is Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald. 263 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:48,742 (applause) 264 00:16:54,414 --> 00:16:56,449 Uh, I call you Dr. MacDonald, now, don't I? 265 00:16:56,517 --> 00:16:58,018 That's right. It's ex‐captain. I'm a doctor. 266 00:16:58,084 --> 00:16:59,720 Yeah, yeah, uh... 267 00:16:59,786 --> 00:17:02,022 I hope this isn't too painful for you. 268 00:17:02,088 --> 00:17:03,524 Uh, I feel like the‐the journalist 269 00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:05,826 who asks the gory question, but, uh... 270 00:17:05,892 --> 00:17:07,528 SMERLING: Jeff went on The Dick Cavett Show. 271 00:17:07,594 --> 00:17:10,430 Do you remember when he came on that show? 272 00:17:10,496 --> 00:17:11,264 Yes. 273 00:17:11,331 --> 00:17:12,966 Somebody called me to say 274 00:17:13,033 --> 00:17:14,467 that he was gonna be on television. 275 00:17:14,535 --> 00:17:16,136 I don't remember. I don't remember. 276 00:17:16,202 --> 00:17:17,938 But I know I watched it. 277 00:17:18,004 --> 00:17:20,006 SMERLING: You remember the Dick Cavett appearance? 278 00:17:20,073 --> 00:17:21,875 I watched it, yeah, I watched it. 279 00:17:21,942 --> 00:17:23,744 It still, at times, seems like a dream. It... 280 00:17:23,810 --> 00:17:25,612 Uh, "nightmare" is a very mild term, really. 281 00:17:25,679 --> 00:17:27,447 MICA: I was coming in off of duty, 282 00:17:27,514 --> 00:17:29,850 and guy goes, "Hey, MacDonald's on Dick Cavett now." 283 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:31,017 I go, "Really?" 284 00:17:31,084 --> 00:17:32,619 Could‐could you talk about 285 00:17:32,686 --> 00:17:34,287 what happened on that... on the night of, uh, 286 00:17:34,354 --> 00:17:36,690 ‐on that night last February? ‐Well, 287 00:17:36,757 --> 00:17:38,491 um, I can skim through it briefly. 288 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:40,861 ‐Uh, to get deep into it, uh, ‐Yeah. 289 00:17:40,927 --> 00:17:44,297 does produce a lot of, uh, emotion on my part. 290 00:17:44,364 --> 00:17:46,767 But, uh, very briefly, my wife came home 291 00:17:46,833 --> 00:17:49,002 and we had a, uh... 292 00:17:49,069 --> 00:17:50,737 before‐bedtime drink, really. 293 00:17:50,804 --> 00:17:54,741 And, uh, watched the beginning of a late‐night talk show. 294 00:17:54,808 --> 00:17:56,577 (audience laughs) 295 00:17:56,643 --> 00:17:58,044 Then, um... 296 00:17:58,111 --> 00:18:00,180 I saw that. I don't know 297 00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:01,982 if it was the night he was on 298 00:18:02,048 --> 00:18:05,786 or thereafter when Freddy said, "You got to see this, Bobby." 299 00:18:05,852 --> 00:18:09,389 I mean, the Army has it set up so that had I not 300 00:18:09,455 --> 00:18:11,958 ‐had a high‐powered, uh, civilian attorney‐‐ ‐Mm‐hmm. 301 00:18:12,025 --> 00:18:14,094 even despite the fact that there's no evidence‐‐ 302 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,131 um, I might very well have been in, uh, Leavenworth, 303 00:18:18,198 --> 00:18:19,833 in prison. 304 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,135 "Myrights were violated." 305 00:18:22,202 --> 00:18:24,538 Not "my family was butchered." 306 00:18:24,605 --> 00:18:27,508 Help... help get information. 307 00:18:27,574 --> 00:18:29,676 Let the American public know. 308 00:18:29,743 --> 00:18:32,646 Where are these investigators now who did the original... 309 00:18:32,713 --> 00:18:34,515 Well, most of them have been transferred. 310 00:18:34,581 --> 00:18:36,249 It's‐it's the Army way of handling things. 311 00:18:36,316 --> 00:18:38,685 If someone really fails up, you either give them a medal 312 00:18:38,752 --> 00:18:41,154 ‐or you transfer them. ‐(audience laughs) 313 00:18:41,221 --> 00:18:43,423 (applause) 314 00:18:45,291 --> 00:18:47,628 His whole demeanor was, like... 315 00:18:47,694 --> 00:18:48,695 (chuckles) 316 00:18:48,762 --> 00:18:50,964 ...like it was a stand‐up comedy act. 317 00:18:51,031 --> 00:18:52,432 What's this done to you? 318 00:18:52,498 --> 00:18:54,400 Uh, do people look at you and say, 319 00:18:54,467 --> 00:18:56,937 uh, "How do we know he didn't do it?" 320 00:18:57,003 --> 00:18:59,039 I don't think I'm being paranoid when I say 321 00:18:59,105 --> 00:19:01,875 that there is certainly a flavor of suspicion 322 00:19:01,942 --> 00:19:04,878 in a lot of people's minds and, uh, 323 00:19:04,945 --> 00:19:06,680 some people pat you on the back 324 00:19:06,747 --> 00:19:08,381 as if to say, uh, "Well, we know you did it, 325 00:19:08,448 --> 00:19:10,083 but it's okay anyway." 326 00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:12,252 STEVENSON: Things weren't being said right. 327 00:19:12,318 --> 00:19:14,087 Inflections of the voice. 328 00:19:14,154 --> 00:19:16,389 MacDONALD: And‐and other people say, "Well, it's gonna be 329 00:19:16,456 --> 00:19:18,024 "very hard to have patients come and visit you 330 00:19:18,091 --> 00:19:20,260 in the future, isn't it?" 331 00:19:20,326 --> 00:19:21,928 Uh, I was accepted... 332 00:19:23,096 --> 00:19:24,297 I‐I was stunned‐‐ 333 00:19:24,364 --> 00:19:26,332 absolutely stunned‐‐ 334 00:19:26,399 --> 00:19:29,102 that he‐he didn't... 335 00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:30,937 He wasn't even sad. 336 00:19:31,004 --> 00:19:33,540 Your whole family was brutally murdered 337 00:19:33,607 --> 00:19:36,076 and you can go on a TV show? 338 00:19:36,142 --> 00:19:37,578 It was like 339 00:19:37,644 --> 00:19:40,480 he was talking about them that they, you know, 340 00:19:40,547 --> 00:19:42,482 were somebody else's family. 341 00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:43,850 CAVETT: Not to mention the fact that 342 00:19:43,917 --> 00:19:46,019 the, uh, perpetrators of the crime 343 00:19:46,086 --> 00:19:48,655 ‐are still free, then. ‐Absolutely. There are at least 344 00:19:48,722 --> 00:19:50,456 four people running around who have, uh, 345 00:19:50,524 --> 00:19:52,726 murdered three people. 346 00:19:54,628 --> 00:19:56,362 It sickened me 347 00:19:56,429 --> 00:19:58,264 and it enraged me. 348 00:19:58,331 --> 00:20:01,234 SMERLING: And obviously, Freddy had a real reaction to that as well. 349 00:20:01,301 --> 00:20:03,369 (short laugh) Visceral. 350 00:20:03,436 --> 00:20:07,140 CAVETT: Fantastic story. I‐I just, I... don't know what to say. 351 00:20:07,207 --> 00:20:09,710 Yeah. Wrenched his guts. 352 00:20:09,776 --> 00:20:11,512 MacDONALD: It's been a hard year. 353 00:20:13,313 --> 00:20:14,915 STEVENSON: That's why, 354 00:20:14,981 --> 00:20:18,552 I guess, he had to demand to see a copy of the Article 32, 355 00:20:18,619 --> 00:20:21,387 so he himself could start to go over facts 356 00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,790 and try to find the truth. 357 00:20:26,793 --> 00:20:28,695 FREDDY: I kept putting up a fight, 358 00:20:28,762 --> 00:20:30,797 that I wanted a copy of the transcripts, and they wouldn't 359 00:20:30,864 --> 00:20:32,966 give them to me, and MacDonald wouldn't give them to me. 360 00:20:33,033 --> 00:20:35,235 He told me that the Army wouldn't let him. 361 00:20:48,515 --> 00:20:50,784 FREDDY: When he got out of the Army, 362 00:20:50,851 --> 00:20:54,688 then I put up such a stink that the Army finally said yes, 363 00:20:54,755 --> 00:20:57,257 they would give me a copy of the transcript. 364 00:21:23,016 --> 00:21:25,451 STEVENSON: He'd read the papers 365 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,453 at his little square table and he sat there 366 00:21:27,521 --> 00:21:30,957 and he chain‐smoked three packs a day, 367 00:21:31,024 --> 00:21:32,492 day after day after day, 368 00:21:32,559 --> 00:21:35,596 going over and over everything. 369 00:21:37,397 --> 00:21:40,801 FREDDY: Page 38: "He stopped mouth‐to‐mouth breathing 370 00:21:40,867 --> 00:21:44,037 because air was coming out of her chest." 371 00:21:46,206 --> 00:21:48,008 Kim had no chest wounds. 372 00:21:51,044 --> 00:21:53,647 And why were both children found laying on their sides 373 00:21:53,714 --> 00:21:55,982 if Jeff gave them mouth‐to‐mouth? 374 00:21:59,419 --> 00:22:02,756 STEVENSON: His thought was that he was yet collecting data, 375 00:22:02,823 --> 00:22:05,659 that he didn't have his mind made up. 376 00:22:05,726 --> 00:22:07,761 It's the time of suspicion. 377 00:22:14,234 --> 00:22:16,336 (line ringing) 378 00:22:25,445 --> 00:22:27,080 KEARNS: Now, Freddy at that time‐‐ 379 00:22:27,147 --> 00:22:31,251 he was doubting... starting to doubt MacDonald. 380 00:22:31,317 --> 00:22:33,386 But still, he was on his side. 381 00:22:39,726 --> 00:22:41,461 FREDDY: It was the top sheet. 382 00:22:46,032 --> 00:22:48,068 FREDDY: Page 38: 383 00:22:48,134 --> 00:22:51,471 "From master bedroom, he went to Kim's room. 384 00:22:51,538 --> 00:22:53,540 He did not put lights on." 385 00:22:53,607 --> 00:22:56,877 Why would a father‐‐ especially a doctor‐‐ 386 00:22:56,943 --> 00:23:00,246 going into a room where his child was so brutally injured, 387 00:23:00,313 --> 00:23:03,850 not put the lights on to try to treat her? 388 00:23:15,461 --> 00:23:17,898 STEVENSON: It was totally systematic. 389 00:23:17,964 --> 00:23:22,068 A line‐by‐line examination of 390 00:23:22,135 --> 00:23:23,236 "says this over here, 391 00:23:23,303 --> 00:23:26,072 "Article 32... 392 00:23:26,139 --> 00:23:27,508 That didn't work." 393 00:23:38,619 --> 00:23:40,521 Well, we're going back through the reinvestigation, 394 00:23:40,587 --> 00:23:41,988 and we found that 395 00:23:42,055 --> 00:23:44,625 all the weapons came from the house. 396 00:23:58,038 --> 00:23:59,172 KEARNS: We say that 397 00:23:59,239 --> 00:24:01,341 the piece of wood was in the master bedroom 398 00:24:01,407 --> 00:24:03,176 and had a utilitarian use. 399 00:24:03,243 --> 00:24:05,879 The footstool was broken, 400 00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:08,414 on her side. We maintain 401 00:24:08,481 --> 00:24:09,716 that he used that piece of wood there 402 00:24:09,783 --> 00:24:11,785 to shore up that side of the bed. 403 00:24:11,852 --> 00:24:14,988 Subsequent laboratory examination has proven that 404 00:24:15,055 --> 00:24:17,791 at one time the murder weapon was a part 405 00:24:17,858 --> 00:24:20,093 of that piece of wood used as a bed slab, 406 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,696 as is shown in these photographs. 407 00:24:39,713 --> 00:24:41,047 I mean, gosh, if it 408 00:24:41,114 --> 00:24:43,183 looks like a duck, it's got webbed feet, 409 00:24:43,249 --> 00:24:44,417 it quacks, it goes in the water 410 00:24:44,484 --> 00:24:46,753 and it's got feathers, it's a duck. 411 00:24:55,962 --> 00:24:58,164 FREDDY: Yeah, yeah. 412 00:25:03,637 --> 00:25:05,105 STEVENSON: You know, all of these things 413 00:25:05,171 --> 00:25:07,240 contribute to a person's overall feelings 414 00:25:07,307 --> 00:25:10,410 and understanding about what may be, 415 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:13,947 and once you feel what something may be, 416 00:25:14,014 --> 00:25:17,383 that's the thread you grab and you start pulling on it 417 00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:20,053 till you unravel the damn sweater. 418 00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:32,533 SOMERS: Captain MacDonald, did you have any occasions 419 00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:34,067 to go to Texas? 420 00:25:35,135 --> 00:25:38,171 ‐MacDONALD: Yes. ‐SOMERS: When? 421 00:25:39,973 --> 00:25:42,876 MacDONALD: It was on a weekend in December 1969. 422 00:25:42,943 --> 00:25:44,511 I was the medical coverage 423 00:25:44,578 --> 00:25:47,080 for a jump of special forces medics in training. 424 00:25:47,147 --> 00:25:50,216 SOMERS: And where did you stay while you were down there? 425 00:25:52,018 --> 00:25:54,087 MacDONALD: At a motel. 426 00:25:56,456 --> 00:25:57,891 SOMERS: On that evening in Texas, 427 00:25:57,958 --> 00:26:00,694 did you have a female companionship? 428 00:26:00,761 --> 00:26:02,563 MacDONALD: Yes, sir. 429 00:26:02,629 --> 00:26:04,397 SOMERS: And did you have 430 00:26:04,464 --> 00:26:07,300 sexual contact with this woman? 431 00:26:07,367 --> 00:26:09,636 MacDONALD: Well, i‐if you can define the term, 432 00:26:09,703 --> 00:26:11,572 I can answer that. 433 00:26:11,638 --> 00:26:15,475 SOMERS: Did you have any type of sexual contact with this woman? 434 00:26:15,542 --> 00:26:17,343 MacDONALD: Yes. 435 00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:19,746 SOMERS: Has this type of sexual activity ever been repeated 436 00:26:19,813 --> 00:26:21,648 during your marriage 437 00:26:21,715 --> 00:26:23,784 with someone other than your wife? 438 00:26:25,619 --> 00:26:27,153 Yes, sir. 439 00:26:45,672 --> 00:26:47,373 (line ringing) 440 00:26:52,713 --> 00:26:54,548 KEARNS: Freddy Kassab has now given us information, 441 00:26:54,615 --> 00:26:57,183 okay, in 1971. 442 00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:59,352 And he called me one day, and he says, "Peter, 443 00:26:59,419 --> 00:27:02,155 check and see if MacDonald's got a broken arm." 444 00:27:02,222 --> 00:27:04,825 I said, "Freddy, what's this all about?" 445 00:27:21,374 --> 00:27:22,709 STEVENSON: Freddy and I 446 00:27:22,776 --> 00:27:24,678 were in his living room, 447 00:27:24,745 --> 00:27:27,280 and he played a recording for me. 448 00:27:38,424 --> 00:27:41,061 It was kind of a‐a... "I've been going out 449 00:27:41,127 --> 00:27:43,664 "with Green Beret killer squads 450 00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:46,567 "looking for the murderers. 451 00:27:46,633 --> 00:27:48,669 "We found one 452 00:27:48,735 --> 00:27:50,937 and I took care of it." 453 00:27:53,540 --> 00:27:55,576 KEARNS: Now, MacDonald said during this altercation, 454 00:27:55,642 --> 00:27:57,410 he suffered a busted arm. 455 00:27:57,477 --> 00:27:59,445 Well, unbeknownst to MacDonald, 456 00:27:59,513 --> 00:28:01,381 we have a surveillance on him. 457 00:28:01,447 --> 00:28:03,750 MacDonald was out in California at this time, out of the Army. 458 00:28:03,817 --> 00:28:06,052 ‐HOST: Yes. ‐KEARNS: We have people inside the hospital 459 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,387 and we have CID agents outside, 460 00:28:07,453 --> 00:28:09,756 and we're surveilling him 24 hours a day. 461 00:28:09,823 --> 00:28:12,025 ‐But we took him and put him to bed. ‐HOST: You found out 462 00:28:12,092 --> 00:28:12,993 ‐that he was lying. ‐(stammers) 463 00:28:13,059 --> 00:28:14,728 He was doing the best operations 464 00:28:14,795 --> 00:28:17,097 with two arms that anybody else was doing. 465 00:28:19,199 --> 00:28:20,901 But what this is is not evidence. 466 00:28:20,967 --> 00:28:23,970 But it shows you the type of guy you're dealing with. 467 00:28:24,037 --> 00:28:25,606 If he's gonna lie about this stuff‐‐ 468 00:28:25,672 --> 00:28:28,341 there's only on reason, by the way, to lie about it‐‐ 469 00:28:28,408 --> 00:28:29,910 that's 'cause he committed the murders. 470 00:28:29,976 --> 00:28:31,477 There's no other reason for him to lie. 471 00:28:34,681 --> 00:28:36,049 KEARNS: All right. 472 00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:42,856 MacDonald knows that if he can Freddy off the back, 473 00:28:42,923 --> 00:28:45,125 get Freddy to shut up, maybe the Army will just 474 00:28:45,191 --> 00:28:49,863 let this die a natural death, which he thought it was doing. 475 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:52,933 But Freddy Kassab was not that dumb. 476 00:28:56,837 --> 00:28:59,773 FREDDY: With agents, I was allowed in the house 477 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,575 to reconstruct the murders 478 00:29:01,642 --> 00:29:05,345 from his story of what happened in that house that night. 479 00:29:08,615 --> 00:29:10,551 KEARNS: Once we got Mr. Kassab to come down 480 00:29:10,617 --> 00:29:11,785 and go through the crime scene 481 00:29:11,852 --> 00:29:13,587 and opened up our records 482 00:29:13,654 --> 00:29:15,522 to him‐‐ no holds barred‐‐ 483 00:29:15,589 --> 00:29:17,290 then he saw we weren't lying. 484 00:29:17,357 --> 00:29:20,561 FREDDY: Drug addicts, running crazy in that house, 485 00:29:20,627 --> 00:29:22,729 killing, don't leave 486 00:29:22,796 --> 00:29:24,998 one single clue in the house. 487 00:29:28,802 --> 00:29:32,372 There is not one drop of his blood in that living room. 488 00:29:32,438 --> 00:29:35,241 How does a man get stabbed and not bleed? 489 00:30:09,275 --> 00:30:12,312 REICH: I was at the Kassabs' house. 490 00:30:13,614 --> 00:30:15,048 We sat at the table 491 00:30:15,115 --> 00:30:16,717 and Freddy had copies 492 00:30:16,783 --> 00:30:20,420 of the reports from the Army. 493 00:30:22,989 --> 00:30:25,325 He kept saying to me, "There's so many 494 00:30:25,391 --> 00:30:27,828 inconsistencies here. There's just‐‐ 495 00:30:27,894 --> 00:30:29,563 There's so much wrong." 496 00:30:31,197 --> 00:30:34,935 And he said, "I know in my heart that he did this. 497 00:30:36,503 --> 00:30:38,438 He did this." 498 00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:45,345 INTERVIEWER: Did the two of you come to this conclusion together? 499 00:30:45,411 --> 00:30:47,781 FREDDY: No. It took me about six months 500 00:30:47,848 --> 00:30:49,683 to convince Mildred. 501 00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:53,086 I held out till the last ditch. 502 00:30:53,153 --> 00:30:55,121 I wouldn't allow myself to believe it. 503 00:30:55,188 --> 00:30:56,823 Because it made it that... 504 00:30:56,890 --> 00:30:59,159 so much worse that it was he 505 00:30:59,225 --> 00:31:01,061 instead of strangers. 506 00:31:01,928 --> 00:31:03,730 The simple fact of a person 507 00:31:03,797 --> 00:31:05,566 being in your family, that you knew him, 508 00:31:05,632 --> 00:31:07,834 makes him blameless. 509 00:31:07,901 --> 00:31:10,336 He couldn't possibly do it. 510 00:31:15,341 --> 00:31:16,877 HOST: Was Colette happy? 511 00:31:16,943 --> 00:31:19,580 MILDRED: She appeared to be. 512 00:31:19,646 --> 00:31:23,584 Colette never gave me any idea to think that 513 00:31:23,650 --> 00:31:25,318 she didn't love him deeply, 514 00:31:25,385 --> 00:31:27,988 and he wasn't the most wonderful person in the world. 515 00:31:29,355 --> 00:31:31,124 But this whole thing was a sham, 516 00:31:31,191 --> 00:31:33,359 this happy life that I thought Colette had. 517 00:31:35,461 --> 00:31:39,232 REICH: Colette wrote to me about being pregnant again, 518 00:31:39,299 --> 00:31:41,267 and worried about it. 519 00:31:41,334 --> 00:31:44,270 Without spelling everything all out. 520 00:31:44,337 --> 00:31:46,540 She indicated they had problems 521 00:31:46,607 --> 00:31:48,374 in the letters. 522 00:31:48,441 --> 00:31:51,377 You know, he was off having a good time. 523 00:31:58,284 --> 00:32:01,555 STEVENSON: My mother always blamed herself. 524 00:32:01,622 --> 00:32:03,023 That if only, 525 00:32:03,089 --> 00:32:06,993 "if only I had listened differently... 526 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:09,429 I could have made a difference." 527 00:32:15,702 --> 00:32:18,171 REICH: Mildred told me 528 00:32:18,238 --> 00:32:21,608 Colette wanted to come home with the kids 529 00:32:21,675 --> 00:32:24,177 to stay a while, and... 530 00:32:24,244 --> 00:32:26,547 Mildred told her it wasn't a good time. 531 00:32:26,613 --> 00:32:29,816 So, she didn't go home. 532 00:32:29,883 --> 00:32:31,885 And that was in February, 533 00:32:31,952 --> 00:32:33,987 right before she died. 534 00:32:34,054 --> 00:32:36,222 So... 535 00:32:36,289 --> 00:32:37,991 SMERLING: That must have been hard for your mom. 536 00:32:38,058 --> 00:32:40,093 More than hard. 537 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,697 She came to mortally hate him. 538 00:32:48,268 --> 00:32:50,837 MILDRED: I never get over that anger. 539 00:32:50,904 --> 00:32:51,972 Just wanting to... 540 00:32:52,038 --> 00:32:54,808 be able to hurt him back 541 00:32:54,875 --> 00:32:57,343 as badly as he hurt them. 542 00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:35,616 KEELER: Freddy was not gonna quit. 543 00:33:35,682 --> 00:33:38,351 He had biblical levels of persistence. 544 00:33:38,418 --> 00:33:40,921 STEVENSON: Once he believed 545 00:33:40,987 --> 00:33:44,190 that MacDonald was guilty, 546 00:33:44,257 --> 00:33:45,626 he was unswerving. 547 00:33:45,692 --> 00:33:46,627 It was like a... 548 00:33:46,693 --> 00:33:49,630 a white line going down the road 549 00:33:49,696 --> 00:33:52,098 into infinity, and he followed it. 550 00:33:53,333 --> 00:33:56,269 REICH: I remember Freddy saying to me, 551 00:33:56,336 --> 00:34:00,473 June... I'm gonna get him. 552 00:34:13,019 --> 00:34:15,221 ♪♪ ♪♪ 553 00:34:16,857 --> 00:34:18,559 MIKE WALLACE: Jeff MacDonald, wanting to put 554 00:34:18,625 --> 00:34:20,360 the whole tragic episode behind him, 555 00:34:20,426 --> 00:34:21,795 moved to Southern California. 556 00:34:21,862 --> 00:34:24,497 He joined the staff of St. Mary Hospital 557 00:34:24,565 --> 00:34:26,399 in Long Beach and before long, 558 00:34:26,466 --> 00:34:27,467 he was director of the Department 559 00:34:27,534 --> 00:34:29,135 of Emergency Medicine here. 560 00:34:29,202 --> 00:34:31,638 How you doing? I'm Dr. MacDonald. 561 00:34:31,705 --> 00:34:33,974 MORRIS: Jeffrey MacDonald broke off 562 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,543 from his in‐laws, the Kassabs. 563 00:34:36,610 --> 00:34:40,113 He moved to Southern California and started a new life. 564 00:34:40,180 --> 00:34:42,949 REPORTER: He owns a luxury waterfront condominium, 565 00:34:43,016 --> 00:34:44,150 a 40‐foot yacht, 566 00:34:44,217 --> 00:34:46,419 and is the first honorary lifetime member 567 00:34:46,486 --> 00:34:48,689 of the local police association. 568 00:34:48,755 --> 00:34:51,491 Do you think someone is after you? 569 00:34:51,558 --> 00:34:54,561 Do you think it is a personal vendetta against you? 570 00:34:54,628 --> 00:34:57,230 I think that, uh, the easy answer 571 00:34:57,297 --> 00:34:58,732 is to jump and say yes. 572 00:34:58,799 --> 00:35:01,735 Mr. Kassab, are you conducting a personal vendetta 573 00:35:01,802 --> 00:35:03,069 against Dr. MacDonald? 574 00:35:03,136 --> 00:35:05,171 Well, yes. I‐I... 575 00:35:05,238 --> 00:35:07,774 But I‐I don't think that's wrong. 576 00:35:12,345 --> 00:35:14,548 MORRIS: Freddy Kassab had this 577 00:35:14,615 --> 00:35:16,883 vein of fury. 578 00:35:16,950 --> 00:35:19,452 At first, it was anger because 579 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,155 Jeffrey was being prosecuted at all. 580 00:35:22,222 --> 00:35:23,690 I don't believe anybody in this country 581 00:35:23,757 --> 00:35:26,326 will believe that. That a sane man would do this. 582 00:35:26,392 --> 00:35:29,362 And then later, convinced of Jeffrey's guilt, 583 00:35:29,429 --> 00:35:30,797 he went after him. 584 00:35:30,864 --> 00:35:34,100 FREDDY: He killed Colette and the children, 585 00:35:34,167 --> 00:35:35,301 and he should pay for it. 586 00:35:35,368 --> 00:35:36,837 I hate him with a passion. 587 00:35:36,903 --> 00:35:40,040 He's lucky I haven't gone out and killed him! 588 00:35:40,106 --> 00:35:43,409 MORRIS: He became this champion 589 00:35:43,476 --> 00:35:45,712 of Jeffrey's guilt. 590 00:35:50,216 --> 00:35:53,486 KEARNS: We wrote our report in 1972, 591 00:35:53,554 --> 00:35:55,055 and I gave it to the Justice Department. 592 00:35:55,121 --> 00:35:57,591 We told them to seek prosecution of Jeffrey MacDonald. 593 00:36:01,562 --> 00:36:04,430 And the Justice Department kept saying, "No... 594 00:36:04,497 --> 00:36:05,766 we can't get a conviction." 595 00:36:16,342 --> 00:36:17,811 KEARNS: Freddy says, "Peter, 596 00:36:17,878 --> 00:36:20,413 "the Justice Department isn't gonna do anything. 597 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,783 "I've got a New York attorney 598 00:36:22,849 --> 00:36:24,618 "to swear out a civilian complaint 599 00:36:24,685 --> 00:36:26,520 arrest warrant for MacDonald." 600 00:36:31,357 --> 00:36:33,026 My wife and I went down to North Carolina 601 00:36:33,093 --> 00:36:34,928 on April 30, 602 00:36:34,995 --> 00:36:38,164 and filed and swore to a criminal complaint 603 00:36:38,231 --> 00:36:40,433 charging MacDonald 604 00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:43,236 with three counts of first‐degree murder. 605 00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:53,446 KEARNS: Most people don't know 606 00:36:53,514 --> 00:36:55,081 that if somebody's done you wrong, 607 00:36:55,148 --> 00:36:57,050 and the police department or the district attorney 608 00:36:57,117 --> 00:36:59,853 won't help you, you can go before a federal judge, 609 00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,355 as a citizen, and say, "This guy killed people, 610 00:37:02,422 --> 00:37:04,257 and I want you to do something about it." 611 00:37:04,324 --> 00:37:05,992 If you got evidence, now. 612 00:37:06,059 --> 00:37:08,895 JARRIEL: What will it take to satisfy you in this case? 613 00:37:08,962 --> 00:37:10,531 A trial. Definitely. 614 00:37:10,597 --> 00:37:12,866 Nothing short of a trial. 615 00:37:12,933 --> 00:37:16,670 REPORTER 2: Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald says he is innocent 616 00:37:16,737 --> 00:37:18,805 of the charge that he killed his pregnant wife 617 00:37:18,872 --> 00:37:20,273 and two children. 618 00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:23,644 Dr. MacDonald told reporters what his defense will be. 619 00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:25,712 Simply a restatement of the facts, um, 620 00:37:25,779 --> 00:37:27,280 even as the government knows them, 621 00:37:27,347 --> 00:37:28,414 and has already restated them. 622 00:37:28,481 --> 00:37:30,951 There's no evidence against me. 623 00:37:44,264 --> 00:37:45,498 I would put it differently. 624 00:37:45,566 --> 00:37:47,868 What would convince me, ultimately, 625 00:37:47,934 --> 00:37:49,269 that Jeffrey MacDonald 626 00:37:49,335 --> 00:37:52,438 is guilty or innocent? 627 00:37:52,506 --> 00:37:54,541 If you asked me‐‐ you haven't asked me, 628 00:37:54,608 --> 00:37:56,610 but if you asked me, 629 00:37:56,677 --> 00:37:59,680 am I certain that he's innocent? 630 00:37:59,746 --> 00:38:01,314 I'm not. 631 00:38:01,381 --> 00:38:03,717 Do I believehe's innocent? 632 00:38:03,784 --> 00:38:05,418 I do. 633 00:38:11,324 --> 00:38:14,761 Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org