1 00:00:07,008 --> 00:00:09,008 (insects chirping) 2 00:00:20,554 --> 00:00:24,123 Ted koppel: Randall dale adams, the subject of the film 3 00:00:24,225 --> 00:00:28,127 The thin blue line, was released on bail today 4 00:00:28,229 --> 00:00:30,763 For a crime he says he didn't commit. 5 00:00:30,865 --> 00:00:34,767 It's a curious way to have come to where you are tonight. 6 00:00:34,869 --> 00:00:38,771 I mean, to be freed, in effect, because of a movie. 7 00:00:38,873 --> 00:00:40,305 There's the old saying, 8 00:00:40,408 --> 00:00:43,342 "there's no guilty people in prison." 9 00:00:43,511 --> 00:00:46,245 Luckily, I had one that would listen to me. 10 00:00:46,347 --> 00:00:48,247 And you're talking about the director 11 00:00:48,349 --> 00:00:50,449 -Of the thin blue line, errol morris? -Errol morris. 12 00:00:50,551 --> 00:00:52,651 Well, as I learned more and more about the case, 13 00:00:52,753 --> 00:00:55,387 I came to believe more and more strongly 14 00:00:55,489 --> 00:00:56,989 In this man's innocence. 15 00:00:57,091 --> 00:01:00,225 After reading this trial transcript, 16 00:01:00,327 --> 00:01:04,396 Gradually, I became obsessed with this particular case. 17 00:01:04,498 --> 00:01:06,498 And at that point, I knew I had to work as hard 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,069 -As I possibly could, uh, to seek his release. -Hmm. 19 00:01:10,171 --> 00:01:13,906 Last month, he was released from prison 20 00:01:14,008 --> 00:01:16,375 And returned to his family in columbus, ohio. 21 00:01:16,477 --> 00:01:20,579 This is after close to 13 years of imprisonment. 22 00:01:20,681 --> 00:01:23,215 I make this movie, the thin blue line, in texas. 23 00:01:23,317 --> 00:01:26,885 The guy who turns out to be innocent, 24 00:01:26,987 --> 00:01:28,887 The guy who is sentenced to death, 25 00:01:28,989 --> 00:01:30,989 The guy who comes within three days 26 00:01:31,092 --> 00:01:33,859 Of being strapped into old sparky, 27 00:01:33,961 --> 00:01:37,029 The texas electric chair, 28 00:01:37,131 --> 00:01:39,698 For a murder, was innocent. 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:41,233 Newsman (on tv): When adams flew home to ohio, 30 00:01:41,335 --> 00:01:44,103 Errol morris was waiting to greet him. 31 00:01:44,205 --> 00:01:46,605 (indistinct, overlapping chatter) 32 00:01:46,707 --> 00:01:48,407 Woman: We'll give everybody a shot. 33 00:01:50,544 --> 00:01:52,678 Morris: Would I like to do it again? 34 00:01:54,482 --> 00:01:57,382 Yeah, of course I would. 35 00:01:57,485 --> 00:02:00,519 Newswoman: Errol morris joins me now from boston. 36 00:02:00,621 --> 00:02:02,788 Let's start with the biggest question, of course. 37 00:02:02,890 --> 00:02:04,389 What makes you believe 38 00:02:04,492 --> 00:02:06,492 That jeffrey macdonald might be innocent? 39 00:02:08,529 --> 00:02:11,063 Evidence. 40 00:02:11,165 --> 00:02:13,432 The wife and two young daughters of an army doctor 41 00:02:13,534 --> 00:02:16,935 Were found dead in their home in fort bragg, north carolina. 42 00:02:17,037 --> 00:02:19,371 Mike wallace: You may remember the crime back in 1970. 43 00:02:19,473 --> 00:02:21,406 One of america's most sensational murder cases. 44 00:02:21,509 --> 00:02:22,975 One of the most bizarre murder cases. 45 00:02:23,077 --> 00:02:24,743 Dan rather: The most complicated murder case 46 00:02:24,845 --> 00:02:26,378 -In history. -Macdonald says the murderers 47 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,780 Were three men and a woman shouting, 48 00:02:28,883 --> 00:02:32,251 "acid is great. Kill all the pigs." 49 00:02:32,353 --> 00:02:34,887 It's a baffling story the more you begin to look into it. 50 00:02:34,989 --> 00:02:36,722 Jeffrey macdonald's life became the subject of a book. 51 00:02:36,824 --> 00:02:38,690 Barbara walters: A popular miniseries. 52 00:02:38,792 --> 00:02:41,560 A television movie called fatal vision. 53 00:02:41,662 --> 00:02:43,629 Reporter: The best-seller portrayed macdonald 54 00:02:43,731 --> 00:02:45,030 As a cold-blooded killer. 55 00:02:45,132 --> 00:02:46,798 Reporter 2: Today, macdonald was sentenced 56 00:02:46,901 --> 00:02:48,300 To three life terms in prison. 57 00:02:50,070 --> 00:02:52,771 Man: Something really, really bad happened here. 58 00:02:52,873 --> 00:02:54,273 It was a miscarriage of justice. 59 00:02:54,375 --> 00:02:56,942 I cannot overcome fatal vision. 60 00:02:57,044 --> 00:02:58,844 Morris: What happens when a narrative 61 00:02:58,946 --> 00:03:01,313 Takes the place of reality? 62 00:03:01,415 --> 00:03:04,116 It's almost as if nothing really happened in history 63 00:03:04,218 --> 00:03:08,020 Unless it has been recorded in a movie 64 00:03:08,122 --> 00:03:09,621 Or in a television series. 65 00:03:09,723 --> 00:03:11,924 Woman: A new book by acclaimed author and filmmaker 66 00:03:12,026 --> 00:03:13,792 Errol morris says that the case 67 00:03:13,894 --> 00:03:16,862 May be more complicated than previously thought. 68 00:03:16,964 --> 00:03:19,298 Macdonald: I did not hurt my wife or my children. 69 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:20,933 Helena: That evening I was wearing 70 00:03:21,035 --> 00:03:23,302 A blonde wig and a floppy hat. 71 00:03:23,404 --> 00:03:26,038 -Man: An innocent man is in jail today. -Mildred: The man is guilty 72 00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:28,173 -As can be. -I am innocent. 73 00:03:28,275 --> 00:03:30,042 He's lucky I haven't gone out and killed him. 74 00:03:30,144 --> 00:03:31,977 Macdonald: I am not that monster. 75 00:03:32,079 --> 00:03:34,112 ♪ ♪ 76 00:03:37,718 --> 00:03:39,117 -Hello there. -How are you? 77 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:40,586 Need to set up the interrotron... 78 00:03:40,688 --> 00:03:41,987 Yeah, I'm just gonna put these over... 79 00:03:42,089 --> 00:03:44,056 -Man: Yes, we did. -Oh, it's for him? 80 00:03:44,158 --> 00:03:45,490 -Oh, that's a great idea. -That's what I was thinking. 81 00:03:45,593 --> 00:03:46,892 -That's fine. -Yeah. 82 00:03:46,994 --> 00:03:48,493 (laughing) 83 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:51,263 (indistinct, distant chatter) 84 00:03:51,365 --> 00:03:52,698 Okay. 85 00:03:52,833 --> 00:03:54,366 -Man: That's out. -Okay. 86 00:03:54,468 --> 00:03:56,368 This is starting to look like the interrotron. 87 00:03:56,470 --> 00:04:00,038 Am I... Am I directing here? 88 00:04:00,140 --> 00:04:01,940 (laughs) 89 00:04:02,042 --> 00:04:04,042 Smerling: Can we talk about 2012? 90 00:04:05,779 --> 00:04:07,112 The hearing and, uh...? 91 00:04:07,214 --> 00:04:09,114 Yeah, that was... 92 00:04:09,216 --> 00:04:11,883 I mean, as this person who did a lot of work 93 00:04:11,986 --> 00:04:14,886 And went through the documentary process, 94 00:04:14,989 --> 00:04:17,422 You went down there with all good intentions. 95 00:04:17,524 --> 00:04:20,058 It was... Must have been a tough experience. 96 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,394 I went down there because I'd been involved 97 00:04:22,496 --> 00:04:26,265 In working on the book for a couple of years, 98 00:04:26,367 --> 00:04:30,035 And everything seemed to be coming to a head. 99 00:04:30,137 --> 00:04:32,437 Um... 100 00:04:33,841 --> 00:04:37,209 It played out differently than I expected. 101 00:04:37,311 --> 00:04:39,111 Newsman: Now to a new development 102 00:04:39,213 --> 00:04:41,913 In one of the most sensational crimes in american history. 103 00:04:42,049 --> 00:04:44,483 40 years later, he's getting another chance 104 00:04:44,585 --> 00:04:46,718 To tell a court once again he's innocent. 105 00:04:46,820 --> 00:04:48,153 Newswoman: The doctor's new defense team 106 00:04:48,255 --> 00:04:50,188 Asserts that there's new evidence. 107 00:04:50,257 --> 00:04:52,324 Newsman 3: His lawyer says this latest appeal 108 00:04:52,426 --> 00:04:54,559 May be macdonald's best chance yet. 109 00:04:54,662 --> 00:04:56,395 Newswoman 2: Now new questions are being raised about whether 110 00:04:56,497 --> 00:04:58,630 His first trial was actually a fair one. 111 00:04:58,732 --> 00:05:01,500 I've always been optimistic because I'm a great believer, 112 00:05:01,602 --> 00:05:04,636 Uh, in justice. 113 00:05:04,738 --> 00:05:06,305 As far as I'm concerned, 114 00:05:06,407 --> 00:05:07,939 This is much ado about nothing. 115 00:05:08,042 --> 00:05:10,275 It's close to being farcical. 116 00:05:10,377 --> 00:05:12,344 I'm honored to be married to him. 117 00:05:12,446 --> 00:05:14,780 I'm honored to be in his corner, 118 00:05:14,882 --> 00:05:17,582 And do anything I can to help the truth. 119 00:05:17,685 --> 00:05:19,718 It was quite a scene. It was very interesting. 120 00:05:19,820 --> 00:05:22,321 You know, uh, matlock-- the front of that building 121 00:05:22,423 --> 00:05:25,891 Is where the series was always filmed at. 122 00:05:25,993 --> 00:05:27,626 Jeffrey macdonald was there. 123 00:05:27,728 --> 00:05:30,162 He was not what I had remembered. 124 00:05:30,264 --> 00:05:33,165 He was a little, tiny, shrunk-up man 125 00:05:33,267 --> 00:05:34,966 Wi-with a prison haircut, 126 00:05:35,069 --> 00:05:37,102 And he looked helpless. 127 00:05:37,204 --> 00:05:39,805 It was like he was completely lost. 128 00:05:39,907 --> 00:05:43,175 The handsome guy at the trial in 1979-- 129 00:05:43,344 --> 00:05:47,245 Well-groomed and everything-- and now look at him. 130 00:05:47,348 --> 00:05:48,747 Looks like 131 00:05:48,849 --> 00:05:50,816 The portrait of dorian gray. 132 00:05:52,386 --> 00:05:54,419 (distant whispering) 133 00:06:05,432 --> 00:06:08,867 Gordon widenhouse: Would you state your name for the record? 134 00:06:08,969 --> 00:06:11,703 Mary: My name is mary wood britt. 135 00:06:11,805 --> 00:06:14,139 Widenhouse: And were you married at one time 136 00:06:14,241 --> 00:06:17,476 -To jimmy britt? -Yes, I was. 137 00:06:17,578 --> 00:06:19,177 Widenhouse: Do you remember when 138 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,313 The macdonald trial started 139 00:06:21,415 --> 00:06:22,714 In federal court? 140 00:06:22,816 --> 00:06:24,483 Mary: Yes, I do. 141 00:06:24,585 --> 00:06:28,053 Jim worked the trial quite a bit. 142 00:06:28,155 --> 00:06:30,389 Widenhouse: What was his primary job? 143 00:06:30,491 --> 00:06:33,325 Mary: He was deputy u.S. Marshal. 144 00:06:33,427 --> 00:06:34,893 Widenhouse: Do you feel like 145 00:06:34,995 --> 00:06:38,029 The trial had sort of been emotionally adverse 146 00:06:38,132 --> 00:06:40,098 Or bad impact on you? 147 00:06:42,269 --> 00:06:43,935 Mary: Yeah, it... 148 00:06:44,037 --> 00:06:46,204 Well, one thing I do remember 149 00:06:46,306 --> 00:06:48,306 That happened during the trial. 150 00:06:48,409 --> 00:06:51,042 I'd wake up during the night, 151 00:06:51,145 --> 00:06:53,912 And he was not in the bed. 152 00:06:54,014 --> 00:06:57,215 And I got up and went looking for him, 153 00:06:57,317 --> 00:07:00,285 And he was out in the side yard. 154 00:07:00,387 --> 00:07:04,723 He was very, very emotional, very upset. 155 00:07:06,026 --> 00:07:08,026 (phone ringing) 156 00:07:13,367 --> 00:07:16,201 Widenhouse: Did you know mr. Britt was going to contact wade smith? 157 00:07:16,303 --> 00:07:17,636 Mary: No. 158 00:07:17,704 --> 00:07:19,704 (phone ringing) 159 00:07:21,909 --> 00:07:23,909 For years, people would say to me, 160 00:07:24,011 --> 00:07:25,410 Who-who worked with him, 161 00:07:25,512 --> 00:07:29,214 "wade, jim britt has some information 162 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:30,782 He needs to give you." 163 00:07:30,884 --> 00:07:33,718 And I would say, "well, tell him to give it to me." 164 00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:39,624 It was like 165 00:07:39,726 --> 00:07:42,294 A little bird pecking on an egg, needed to get out. 166 00:07:44,731 --> 00:07:46,665 I said, "well, jim, 167 00:07:46,767 --> 00:07:49,301 "I need to put you under oath. 168 00:07:49,403 --> 00:07:50,969 Let me be a lawyer." 169 00:07:51,071 --> 00:07:53,505 Had him swear on the bible to tell the truth, 170 00:07:53,607 --> 00:07:55,607 And I had him tell the story. 171 00:07:57,911 --> 00:08:00,078 I then had him polygraphed. 172 00:08:02,483 --> 00:08:04,483 And he passed. He passed the polygraph. 173 00:08:04,585 --> 00:08:07,752 Jimmy britt: I, jimmy b. Britt, was one of 174 00:08:07,855 --> 00:08:09,788 The united states marshals assigned to the trial 175 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:13,492 Of jeffrey macdonald in 1979. 176 00:08:13,594 --> 00:08:16,528 I was assigned to travel to assume custody of a witness 177 00:08:16,630 --> 00:08:19,297 By the name of helena stoeckley. 178 00:08:21,068 --> 00:08:23,301 I picked up ms. Stoeckley up at the county jail 179 00:08:23,403 --> 00:08:25,103 In greenville, south carolina 180 00:08:25,205 --> 00:08:28,840 And drove her back to raleigh. 181 00:08:28,942 --> 00:08:31,176 During the course of the travel, without any prompting 182 00:08:31,278 --> 00:08:32,811 From me whatsoever, 183 00:08:32,913 --> 00:08:34,779 Ms. Stoeckley brought up the matter of the trial 184 00:08:34,882 --> 00:08:36,815 Of mr. Macdonald. 185 00:08:36,917 --> 00:08:39,618 She told me that she, in fact, along with others, 186 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,620 Was in jeffrey macdonald's home on the night 187 00:08:41,722 --> 00:08:43,922 Of the macdonald murders. 188 00:08:44,024 --> 00:08:46,157 I knew at the time that what 189 00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:48,627 Ms. Stoeckley had said was very important. 190 00:08:49,763 --> 00:08:52,264 I remember her words clearly. 191 00:08:55,302 --> 00:08:56,835 And they're among the most important words 192 00:08:56,937 --> 00:08:58,703 I've ever heard in my life. 193 00:09:03,877 --> 00:09:05,844 (whirring) 194 00:09:11,118 --> 00:09:13,685 -Smerling: Did you believe jimmy britt? -Yes. 195 00:09:13,787 --> 00:09:15,520 (indistinct chatter) 196 00:09:15,622 --> 00:09:17,222 Britt: At the courthouse, 197 00:09:17,324 --> 00:09:18,757 I escorted ms. Stoeckley to the eighth floor 198 00:09:18,859 --> 00:09:21,059 To the united states attorney's office. 199 00:09:21,161 --> 00:09:22,661 (door creaking) 200 00:09:22,763 --> 00:09:25,030 As I recall, mr. Blackburn sat behind a desk 201 00:09:25,132 --> 00:09:26,431 That was set at an angle 202 00:09:26,533 --> 00:09:28,466 In the northeast corner of the office. 203 00:09:30,037 --> 00:09:32,070 Helena stoeckley sat at the center chair 204 00:09:32,172 --> 00:09:33,872 In the front of the desk, 205 00:09:33,974 --> 00:09:37,375 And I sat over to the side next to the window. 206 00:09:37,477 --> 00:09:39,110 Smith: Mr. Britt told me 207 00:09:39,212 --> 00:09:43,081 That he was with mr. Blackburn and helena stoeckley, 208 00:09:43,183 --> 00:09:47,719 And, uh, mr. Blackburn told helena 209 00:09:47,821 --> 00:09:49,554 That if she said 210 00:09:49,656 --> 00:09:54,726 What she had been saying, that 211 00:09:54,828 --> 00:09:57,195 He would indict her for murder. 212 00:09:57,297 --> 00:10:00,131 ♪ ♪ 213 00:10:05,806 --> 00:10:07,272 Widenhouse: Do you recall 214 00:10:07,374 --> 00:10:09,040 Whether anything unusual happened 215 00:10:09,142 --> 00:10:10,709 At the end of the trial? 216 00:10:10,811 --> 00:10:12,577 Mary: Yes. 217 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,879 Jim came home from work early, 218 00:10:14,982 --> 00:10:17,649 Which was very unusual, and I said, 219 00:10:17,751 --> 00:10:19,818 "you know, what-what is it?" and he said, 220 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,387 "they found jeffrey macdonald guilty," 221 00:10:22,489 --> 00:10:25,724 And that they told him to lock him up. 222 00:10:25,826 --> 00:10:29,227 And he said, "I was not doing any more of the dirty work. 223 00:10:29,329 --> 00:10:32,631 I was going home," and he said, "I left." 224 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:44,509 Moving testimony from the widow of jimmy britt, 225 00:10:44,611 --> 00:10:46,244 The federal marshal-- 226 00:10:46,346 --> 00:10:50,749 This was the crucial defense witness in 1979, 227 00:10:50,851 --> 00:10:52,984 Threatened by the prosecution. 228 00:10:53,086 --> 00:10:55,253 The justice system has its flaws, 229 00:10:55,355 --> 00:10:57,489 But I believe that when all of the evidence 230 00:10:57,591 --> 00:10:59,491 Of this case is presented, 231 00:10:59,593 --> 00:11:01,826 That it will be absolutely clear 232 00:11:01,928 --> 00:11:03,962 There was a miscarriage of justice in 1979. 233 00:11:04,064 --> 00:11:05,697 This man'll be set free. 234 00:11:15,242 --> 00:11:16,941 Day two of a court hearing weighing potential new evidence 235 00:11:17,044 --> 00:11:19,177 In the infamous murder case of jeffrey macdonald. 236 00:11:19,279 --> 00:11:20,779 This guy may be getting out of jail, folks. 237 00:11:20,881 --> 00:11:23,214 Newsman: Lawyers for jeffrey macdonald 238 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:25,450 Are building much of their case on a sworn statement 239 00:11:25,552 --> 00:11:28,486 Made in 2005 by a now-deceased federal marshal. 240 00:11:28,588 --> 00:11:30,255 That marshal, jimmy britt, 241 00:11:30,357 --> 00:11:32,023 Claimed the lead prosecutor in macdonald's 242 00:11:32,125 --> 00:11:35,460 1979 trial threatened to charge a defense witness 243 00:11:35,562 --> 00:11:38,863 With murder if she testified that she had anything to do 244 00:11:38,965 --> 00:11:41,166 With killing macdonald's family. 245 00:11:41,268 --> 00:11:44,202 Do you think that britt overheard 246 00:11:44,304 --> 00:11:47,405 Blackburn threaten helena? 247 00:11:47,507 --> 00:11:49,040 How the hell do I know? 248 00:11:49,142 --> 00:11:53,678 Do I think blackburn threatened helena stoeckley? 249 00:11:53,780 --> 00:11:55,013 Yeah. 250 00:11:56,483 --> 00:11:58,750 If I'm blackburn, 251 00:11:58,852 --> 00:12:00,351 You're worried! 252 00:12:00,454 --> 00:12:02,987 This woman takes the stand, she might 253 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:06,558 Destroy your case or she might weaken your case 254 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:11,863 In such a way that the jury can't convict, so... 255 00:12:11,965 --> 00:12:13,832 What do you do? 256 00:12:13,934 --> 00:12:17,202 -Mr. Smerling? -(chuckles) 257 00:12:17,304 --> 00:12:19,270 (indistinct chatter) 258 00:12:19,372 --> 00:12:20,772 Blackburn: I go down there. 259 00:12:20,874 --> 00:12:22,674 There's a lot of people there. 260 00:12:22,776 --> 00:12:25,076 News media from all over everywhere. 261 00:12:25,178 --> 00:12:27,846 And, uh... 262 00:12:27,948 --> 00:12:29,481 I testified. 263 00:12:30,984 --> 00:12:32,417 John bruce: The next witness we would like 264 00:12:32,519 --> 00:12:35,186 To call is mr. Jim blackburn. 265 00:12:37,657 --> 00:12:39,023 An fbi agent friend of mine comes up and says, 266 00:12:39,126 --> 00:12:40,658 "jim, they're gonna try to kill you." 267 00:12:40,761 --> 00:12:41,760 He was right. 268 00:12:42,796 --> 00:12:44,462 Bruce: Uh, mr. Blackburn? 269 00:12:44,564 --> 00:12:46,765 -Yes. -Did you get into some trouble? 270 00:12:46,867 --> 00:12:49,901 -I got into a lot of trouble. -Did the trouble result 271 00:12:50,003 --> 00:12:51,936 In your conviction of crimes? 272 00:12:52,038 --> 00:12:53,838 Yes. 273 00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:56,407 Here's something to ponder in this particular case, 274 00:12:56,543 --> 00:12:58,743 And it'll be discussed during these ten days. 275 00:12:58,845 --> 00:13:01,112 Number one, the prosecutor is 276 00:13:01,214 --> 00:13:03,748 A disbarred attorney right now for fraud. 277 00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:06,417 He has psychiatric issues. I don't know when they started. 278 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,420 -I know that... -You know that for a fact? 279 00:13:09,523 --> 00:13:11,055 Well, that's what the basis of his felony 280 00:13:11,158 --> 00:13:12,757 Convictions was that he was driven to... 281 00:13:12,859 --> 00:13:14,926 The prosecutor was convicted of felonies? 282 00:13:15,028 --> 00:13:18,129 12 felony counts and he spent time in federal prison. 283 00:13:18,231 --> 00:13:20,765 I had trouble telling clients no. 284 00:13:20,867 --> 00:13:22,300 I really did. 285 00:13:22,402 --> 00:13:25,136 And got where I made stuff up. 286 00:13:25,238 --> 00:13:27,472 You were writing an order that you knew was false 287 00:13:27,574 --> 00:13:28,606 When you were writing it? 288 00:13:28,708 --> 00:13:30,775 -Yes. -Those are crimes 289 00:13:30,877 --> 00:13:32,977 That involve false representations? 290 00:13:33,079 --> 00:13:34,679 -Yes. -Don't they? 291 00:13:34,781 --> 00:13:36,815 And you knew they were wrong when you did it, didn't you? 292 00:13:36,917 --> 00:13:39,884 -Yes. -And that's really where things 293 00:13:39,986 --> 00:13:42,954 -Completely fall apart? -It is. 294 00:13:43,123 --> 00:13:45,957 I'm not proud of it at all. 295 00:13:46,059 --> 00:13:47,792 It's awful. 296 00:13:47,894 --> 00:13:50,195 I was a good lawyer 297 00:13:50,297 --> 00:13:54,199 For a long time with a stellar reputation. 298 00:13:54,301 --> 00:13:57,035 And then I didn't have it. 299 00:13:57,137 --> 00:13:59,470 Let me just say this, steve. 300 00:13:59,573 --> 00:14:03,808 I know as well as anybody in this courtroom 301 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:07,212 The consequences of doing these things. 302 00:14:07,314 --> 00:14:12,050 I want you to know I would never in a million years 303 00:14:12,152 --> 00:14:15,820 Say something from this witness stand 304 00:14:15,922 --> 00:14:18,990 That was untrue to keep dr. Macdonald 305 00:14:19,092 --> 00:14:21,893 Or anybody else in any situation 306 00:14:21,995 --> 00:14:26,331 Because it just is not worth it. 307 00:14:26,433 --> 00:14:29,567 Bruce: Now, in 1979, you were representing 308 00:14:29,669 --> 00:14:31,669 The united states government, which was the adversary 309 00:14:31,771 --> 00:14:34,505 Of jeffrey macdonald in this case, is that right? 310 00:14:34,608 --> 00:14:36,975 Blackburn: Yes. 311 00:14:37,077 --> 00:14:38,476 I'm sitting opposite helena. 312 00:14:38,578 --> 00:14:40,979 We introduce ourselves, who we are. 313 00:14:41,081 --> 00:14:42,847 I remember saying to her, "helena, were you there? 314 00:14:43,016 --> 00:14:46,084 Did you have anything to do with this case?" 315 00:14:46,186 --> 00:14:48,219 And she says to me, 316 00:14:48,321 --> 00:14:51,189 "no, I was not there." 317 00:14:51,291 --> 00:14:53,558 And then you can hear the air go out of the room. 318 00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:55,126 Everybody sort of relaxes. 319 00:14:55,262 --> 00:14:57,462 So I follow up, I say, 320 00:14:57,564 --> 00:15:00,398 "did you recognize any of the scenes in this photograph?" 321 00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:02,567 The answer was no. I asked her, "have you 322 00:15:02,669 --> 00:15:04,435 Ever been to that house?" she said no. 323 00:15:04,537 --> 00:15:06,771 I said, "do you know anything about that?" "no." 324 00:15:06,873 --> 00:15:08,873 "who do you think did it?" "dr. Macdonald." 325 00:15:08,975 --> 00:15:12,911 You know, it just went one right after the other. 326 00:15:13,013 --> 00:15:15,446 And finally, at one point, she turns to me, she says, 327 00:15:15,548 --> 00:15:19,851 "mr. Blackburn, is there any evidence that I was there?" 328 00:15:19,953 --> 00:15:21,519 And I said, "no, helena, there's not. 329 00:15:21,621 --> 00:15:23,721 "the only evidence that you were there 330 00:15:23,823 --> 00:15:25,757 Are your own statements." 331 00:15:25,859 --> 00:15:29,027 Bruce: Did you at any time during the interview 332 00:15:29,129 --> 00:15:32,964 Of helena stoeckley threaten to prosecute her 333 00:15:33,066 --> 00:15:35,633 For the murders of jeffrey macdonald's family? 334 00:15:35,735 --> 00:15:38,036 No, I never did that. 335 00:15:40,473 --> 00:15:42,106 Bruce: Were there any people 336 00:15:42,208 --> 00:15:43,708 Other than the assistant u.S. Attorneys 337 00:15:43,877 --> 00:15:46,377 And the u.S. Attorney and helena stoeckley in the room 338 00:15:46,479 --> 00:15:48,112 During the interview? 339 00:15:48,214 --> 00:15:50,615 Blackburn: No. 340 00:15:53,053 --> 00:15:54,152 He was never in the room. 341 00:15:54,254 --> 00:15:55,420 Never. 342 00:15:55,522 --> 00:15:57,455 We would not have asked him to be in the room. 343 00:15:57,557 --> 00:16:01,759 It is absolutely untrue. 344 00:16:01,861 --> 00:16:05,363 And another word for untrue is a lie. 345 00:16:13,306 --> 00:16:14,605 Prosecutors will call more witnesses today at a hearing 346 00:16:14,708 --> 00:16:15,606 In the so-called fatal vision case. 347 00:16:15,709 --> 00:16:17,008 A former green beret doctor 348 00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:18,910 Convicted of killing his pregnant wife 349 00:16:19,012 --> 00:16:20,611 And two daughters fighting for a new trial 350 00:16:20,714 --> 00:16:23,414 More than 40 years after the crime. 351 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:25,149 Reporter: A big part of the current macdonald hearing 352 00:16:25,251 --> 00:16:28,252 Revolves around a statement by former marshal jimmy britt. 353 00:16:28,355 --> 00:16:30,922 Britt claimed he picked up helena stoeckley 354 00:16:31,024 --> 00:16:32,090 And brought her to raleigh. 355 00:16:32,192 --> 00:16:33,524 He said stoeckley told him 356 00:16:33,626 --> 00:16:35,159 She thought she was in the apartment 357 00:16:35,261 --> 00:16:37,862 And her friends murdered his wife and daughters. 358 00:16:37,964 --> 00:16:40,264 This afternoon, former prosecutor jim blackburn 359 00:16:40,367 --> 00:16:42,433 Took the stand to cast doubt 360 00:16:42,535 --> 00:16:46,270 On one of the keys to the defense case. 361 00:16:46,373 --> 00:16:49,474 Bruce: Mr. Blackburn, did there come a time 362 00:16:49,576 --> 00:16:51,943 During the trial that 363 00:16:52,078 --> 00:16:55,446 The presence of helena stoeckley became an issue? 364 00:16:55,548 --> 00:16:58,216 Blackburn: Yes, she was to be arrested 365 00:16:58,318 --> 00:17:00,284 And brought back to north carolina to testify 366 00:17:00,387 --> 00:17:01,919 As a material witness in the case. 367 00:17:02,022 --> 00:17:03,588 Bruce: And what were the circumstances? 368 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:05,556 Blackburn: Well, the circumstances were 369 00:17:05,658 --> 00:17:08,226 That, uh, I think she had been located. 370 00:17:08,328 --> 00:17:12,430 Pickens county jail is what I've been told. 371 00:17:12,532 --> 00:17:14,932 Bruce: Jimmy britt says he traveled 372 00:17:15,035 --> 00:17:16,768 From raleigh to south carolina 373 00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:18,736 To transport helena stoeckley 374 00:17:18,838 --> 00:17:20,571 Back to raleigh during the macdonald trial. 375 00:17:20,707 --> 00:17:23,441 (bell dings) 376 00:17:23,543 --> 00:17:25,143 Blackburn: Jimmy britt, 377 00:17:25,245 --> 00:17:28,012 Who claimed that he drove her and that she confessed 378 00:17:28,114 --> 00:17:31,482 And also told him about meeting with me. 379 00:17:31,584 --> 00:17:33,751 He didn't drive her. 380 00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,157 That trip never happened. 381 00:17:39,259 --> 00:17:41,159 The way they found out 382 00:17:41,261 --> 00:17:42,994 Who did drive her-- 383 00:17:43,163 --> 00:17:44,896 Well, pickens county jail 384 00:17:44,998 --> 00:17:48,533 Is an old county. 385 00:17:48,635 --> 00:17:50,134 And the paper records showed 386 00:17:50,236 --> 00:17:52,170 Who it was. 387 00:17:56,309 --> 00:17:58,843 Bruce: The true facts are that britt was not given the task at all 388 00:17:58,945 --> 00:18:00,711 To transport her from south carolina. 389 00:18:00,814 --> 00:18:02,814 What is the evidence of this? 390 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,353 Now I'd like to call my next witness. 391 00:18:09,456 --> 00:18:12,390 -Would you state your name, sir? -Dennis meehan. 392 00:18:12,492 --> 00:18:14,125 Bruce: Were you given any assignment in connection 393 00:18:14,227 --> 00:18:16,861 With that transportation of helena stoeckley? 394 00:18:16,963 --> 00:18:20,198 -Yes, I was. -And what was that assignment? 395 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:22,733 Meehan: To, uh, transfer her from charlotte, north carolina 396 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,203 To raleigh, north carolina. 397 00:18:25,305 --> 00:18:28,706 Bruce: What was the exact spot where you were supposed to meet? 398 00:18:28,808 --> 00:18:31,843 Meehan: It was at the intersection of, uh, 399 00:18:31,945 --> 00:18:35,546 I-77, I-85. 400 00:18:35,648 --> 00:18:37,415 Bruce: Now, when you got to the meeting point, 401 00:18:37,517 --> 00:18:40,518 Was the person that you were meeting already there? 402 00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:42,987 Meehan: Yes, I believe they were. Yeah. 403 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:44,755 Bruce: Can you describe him? 404 00:18:44,858 --> 00:18:47,892 Meehan: He was a tall, uh, black man. 405 00:18:47,994 --> 00:18:50,361 Bruce: All right, what happened after you met at the, 406 00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:52,530 Uh, place there at the intersection? 407 00:18:52,632 --> 00:18:55,433 Meehan: We switched out restraints. I placed her in the car. 408 00:18:55,535 --> 00:18:58,503 And we parted directly to the wake county jail. 409 00:19:00,507 --> 00:19:04,108 Bruce: Now, was deputy u.S. Marshal jimmy britt 410 00:19:04,210 --> 00:19:07,311 Involved in the transport from charlotte to raleigh? 411 00:19:07,413 --> 00:19:09,413 Meehan: No. 412 00:19:12,185 --> 00:19:14,185 Bruce: No further questions, your honor. 413 00:19:17,557 --> 00:19:19,590 Jimmy britt, unfortunately, was a liar. 414 00:19:19,692 --> 00:19:24,028 The trip from south carolina to north carolina never existed. 415 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:27,064 If a man cannot tell the truth about one thing, 416 00:19:27,167 --> 00:19:30,868 How can we consider his evidence on something else? 417 00:19:30,970 --> 00:19:33,104 Reporter: Do you think the judge will believe 418 00:19:33,206 --> 00:19:36,807 The affidavits from mr. Britt or mr. Blackburn? 419 00:19:36,910 --> 00:19:39,877 If anyone was to go into mr. Britt's, um... 420 00:19:40,013 --> 00:19:42,813 (smacks lips) reputation as a marshal, 421 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:44,415 All you have to do is look that up. 422 00:19:44,517 --> 00:19:47,418 He was one of the top, most respected marshals. 423 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,954 Nothing on his record. (stammering) 424 00:19:51,858 --> 00:19:54,659 I ask you to look up mr. Britt's record. 425 00:20:02,001 --> 00:20:03,768 Bruce: Your relationship with jimmy britt 426 00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:05,403 Was one of supervisor 427 00:20:05,505 --> 00:20:08,139 -To subordinate, is that right? -Yes. 428 00:20:08,241 --> 00:20:11,742 Bruce: How would you characterize him as an employee? 429 00:20:11,844 --> 00:20:15,146 (chuckles) an attention seeker. 430 00:20:22,188 --> 00:20:23,955 Bruce: Would you state your name, sir? 431 00:20:24,057 --> 00:20:27,191 Berryhill: I'm william I. Berryhill, jr. 432 00:20:27,293 --> 00:20:28,726 Bruce: Did you get to know jimmy britt 433 00:20:28,828 --> 00:20:32,363 As an employee in your marshal's office? 434 00:20:32,465 --> 00:20:35,366 Berryhill: I knew him extremely well. 435 00:20:35,468 --> 00:20:36,701 Bruce: Now, did you have problems with him 436 00:20:36,803 --> 00:20:38,803 When he was under your supervision? 437 00:20:41,975 --> 00:20:43,407 Berryhill: Constantly. 438 00:20:47,914 --> 00:20:52,850 I would say he was a-a very marginal employee. 439 00:20:56,856 --> 00:20:58,689 I found, uh, jimmy britt 440 00:20:58,791 --> 00:21:02,693 To be rather large in ego and, uh, rather small 441 00:21:02,795 --> 00:21:04,629 When it came to veracity. 442 00:21:11,638 --> 00:21:13,638 (bell dings) 443 00:21:20,546 --> 00:21:22,113 Bruce: Jimmy britt had nothing to do 444 00:21:22,215 --> 00:21:25,182 With the transportation of helena stoeckley. 445 00:21:25,285 --> 00:21:28,152 The one contact that the evidence shows 446 00:21:28,254 --> 00:21:30,454 That jimmy britt actually had 447 00:21:30,556 --> 00:21:33,457 With helena stoeckley was transporting her 448 00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:36,160 Seven and a half blocks from wake county jail 449 00:21:36,262 --> 00:21:37,928 To the federal building. 450 00:21:38,031 --> 00:21:41,932 I submit that it strains all credulity 451 00:21:42,035 --> 00:21:44,669 That during that seven-and-a-half-block ride, 452 00:21:44,771 --> 00:21:47,872 That helena stoeckley decided to bare her soul 453 00:21:47,974 --> 00:21:49,940 And confess to the macdonald murders 454 00:21:50,043 --> 00:21:51,909 To jimmy britt, who she had never met 455 00:21:52,011 --> 00:21:53,878 Before that day. 456 00:21:56,849 --> 00:21:58,382 Reporter: Kathryn, you want to talk a little about 457 00:21:58,484 --> 00:21:59,817 How you feel about this afternoon 458 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:01,018 And how testimony went? 459 00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,187 The prosecution had a pretty big day. 460 00:22:03,323 --> 00:22:04,755 I don't think so. I think everything went 461 00:22:04,857 --> 00:22:06,257 Exactly as I expected. 462 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,425 I knew what they were going to say 463 00:22:07,493 --> 00:22:09,760 And who was gonna say what and so forth. 464 00:22:09,862 --> 00:22:12,263 Um, what do you think the defense counsel 465 00:22:12,365 --> 00:22:15,399 Now needs to do to keep their, you know, claim alive 466 00:22:15,501 --> 00:22:18,002 And to sway the judge? 467 00:22:18,104 --> 00:22:19,570 I don't think we've-- I don't think 468 00:22:19,639 --> 00:22:21,172 Our claim has gone anywhere. 469 00:22:21,274 --> 00:22:24,442 And I-I don't look at it from that perspective at all. 470 00:22:32,952 --> 00:22:34,318 And now we're gonna turn next to the infamous murder case 471 00:22:34,420 --> 00:22:36,053 And the woman who is fighting for the release 472 00:22:36,155 --> 00:22:38,656 Of the convicted murderer she married 473 00:22:38,758 --> 00:22:40,024 As he is serving three life sentences. 474 00:22:40,126 --> 00:22:42,393 -It's nice to have you here. -Thank you so much. 475 00:22:42,495 --> 00:22:44,595 ♪ ♪ 476 00:22:46,366 --> 00:22:49,333 Kathryn: I put about a thousand miles on the car every week. 477 00:22:49,435 --> 00:22:51,469 Reporter: Three times a week, this woman makes 478 00:22:51,604 --> 00:22:53,237 The 140-mile drive 479 00:22:53,339 --> 00:22:56,474 From her home outside of washington d.C. 480 00:22:56,576 --> 00:22:57,475 Kathryn: He's just so warm, 481 00:22:57,577 --> 00:23:01,779 And he's so kind and so smart, and... 482 00:23:01,881 --> 00:23:04,148 That love of life-- I think that is something 483 00:23:04,250 --> 00:23:05,816 I really gravitated to. 484 00:23:05,918 --> 00:23:07,151 You don't think you're being duped? 485 00:23:07,253 --> 00:23:09,587 Oh, absolutely not. (chuckles) 486 00:23:09,689 --> 00:23:11,956 When I found out that he and kathryn macdonald 487 00:23:12,058 --> 00:23:15,459 Were married, I called the prison to ask, 488 00:23:15,561 --> 00:23:17,395 "how can you allow this?" 489 00:23:17,497 --> 00:23:19,063 I was mad. 490 00:23:19,165 --> 00:23:22,299 I said, "I think you should have taken into consideration 491 00:23:22,402 --> 00:23:26,837 That he's a widower because he killed his wife." 492 00:23:26,939 --> 00:23:30,074 I got to hang up at that point. 493 00:23:30,176 --> 00:23:32,176 Is there something about you that had you 494 00:23:32,278 --> 00:23:34,945 Go that direction in your life? 495 00:23:35,047 --> 00:23:37,948 No. I think it's something about him. 496 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:39,583 He's innocent. 497 00:23:39,685 --> 00:23:41,519 Larry king: Do you think you're gonna win this? 498 00:23:42,655 --> 00:23:44,688 I have every confidence that, 499 00:23:44,791 --> 00:23:46,991 If there is justice, 500 00:23:47,093 --> 00:23:50,361 If someone will just listen to us, 501 00:23:50,463 --> 00:23:52,496 Then we will win and jeff'll come home. 502 00:23:52,598 --> 00:23:54,064 Thanks, kathryn. 503 00:23:54,167 --> 00:23:56,000 -Thank you so much. -Mm-hmm. 504 00:23:56,102 --> 00:24:00,504 Kathryn macdonald, the wife of captain jeffrey macdonald. 505 00:24:01,841 --> 00:24:04,275 I'll see better without my glasses. 506 00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:10,147 Uh, an affidavit drafted by... 507 00:24:10,249 --> 00:24:12,483 Hart miles' law firm 508 00:24:12,585 --> 00:24:16,320 On behalf of kathryn macdonald. 509 00:24:16,422 --> 00:24:19,657 Uh, this was witnessed and then signed by my mother. 510 00:24:21,461 --> 00:24:22,827 Eugene: Sure. 511 00:24:22,929 --> 00:24:25,029 Uh, "I am the mother of helena stoeckley davis, 512 00:24:25,131 --> 00:24:26,797 "who is now deceased. 513 00:24:26,899 --> 00:24:28,399 "I was very close to my daughter 514 00:24:28,501 --> 00:24:30,367 "and held her confidences. 515 00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:34,038 "after the murders of jeffrey macdonald's wife and children, 516 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:36,240 "my daughter wanted to set the record straight 517 00:24:36,342 --> 00:24:39,243 "about the macdonald murders, and knew that dr. Macdonald 518 00:24:39,345 --> 00:24:41,545 Was innocent." 519 00:24:41,647 --> 00:24:44,448 ♪ ♪ 520 00:24:44,517 --> 00:24:46,417 Newswoman: Potential bombshell testimony 521 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:51,222 From one eugene stoeckley, who claims his sister confessed 522 00:24:51,324 --> 00:24:53,757 She was present at the killings. 523 00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,861 Helena stoeckley died in 1983. 524 00:24:56,963 --> 00:24:59,363 Widenhouse: Could you state your name for the record? 525 00:24:59,465 --> 00:25:01,932 Uh, eugene bernard stoeckley. 526 00:25:02,034 --> 00:25:04,268 Smerling: What did you think of eugene? 527 00:25:04,370 --> 00:25:06,937 I thought he was a little nervous on the stand. 528 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:09,907 My first thought was maybe he had restless legs syndrome. 529 00:25:10,009 --> 00:25:12,543 (laughs): Because he kept moving so much. 530 00:25:12,645 --> 00:25:15,880 I think he thought he was doing 531 00:25:15,982 --> 00:25:19,216 What he should do, and that's what he did. 532 00:25:20,653 --> 00:25:22,419 Widenhouse: Good morning, mr. Stoeckley. 533 00:25:22,522 --> 00:25:25,089 Did there come a time when your mother 534 00:25:25,191 --> 00:25:28,425 Was no longer able to live on her own? 535 00:25:28,528 --> 00:25:29,894 Eugene: Yes. 536 00:25:31,397 --> 00:25:35,099 My mother's health started deteriorating, 537 00:25:35,201 --> 00:25:38,302 And physically things were taking its toll. 538 00:25:38,404 --> 00:25:40,104 She had emphysema. 539 00:25:40,206 --> 00:25:42,573 I remember sitting there in that room 540 00:25:42,675 --> 00:25:45,743 For about three days around the clock. 541 00:25:48,614 --> 00:25:52,416 One evening in there with her, you know, she said 542 00:25:52,518 --> 00:25:54,518 That helena kind of bared her soul. 543 00:25:54,620 --> 00:25:56,687 Knowing that her time was short, 544 00:25:56,789 --> 00:26:00,190 She felt quite sure of it, knew she was dying. 545 00:26:00,293 --> 00:26:02,192 Widenhouse: What did she tell you 546 00:26:02,295 --> 00:26:05,863 When you asked her about the macdonald issue? 547 00:26:05,965 --> 00:26:09,166 Eugene: She said that helena was there... 548 00:26:09,268 --> 00:26:11,635 -That night. -Okay, and by-by "there," 549 00:26:11,737 --> 00:26:13,504 What did she mean? 550 00:26:13,606 --> 00:26:16,273 Eugene: Present at the house the night of the murders. 551 00:26:16,375 --> 00:26:19,143 She told me that she believed 552 00:26:19,245 --> 00:26:21,845 That dr. Macdonald shouldn't be in prison. 553 00:26:21,948 --> 00:26:25,916 So I asked mother, I said, uh, "have you told anybody?" 554 00:26:26,018 --> 00:26:28,986 You know, and she said, "well, nobody's gonna listen." 555 00:26:29,088 --> 00:26:31,121 And I said, "what if somebody would?" 556 00:26:31,223 --> 00:26:35,292 (sniffles) and she just, she said, "well, I'd tell 'em. 557 00:26:35,394 --> 00:26:38,128 You know, tell 'em what she told me." 558 00:26:38,230 --> 00:26:41,198 The last thing I wanted was to draw attention 559 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:43,934 To the remaining family members, 560 00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:46,537 But I felt somehow morally obligated 561 00:26:46,639 --> 00:26:48,706 To tell somebody. 562 00:26:51,711 --> 00:26:53,444 Bruce: Thank you. 563 00:26:56,349 --> 00:26:58,215 Bruce: Now, I believe you indicated 564 00:26:58,317 --> 00:27:00,217 On direct examination that after your mother 565 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:01,986 Told you this, it weighed heavily on your mind. 566 00:27:02,088 --> 00:27:04,588 -That's correct. -And you decided 567 00:27:04,690 --> 00:27:06,757 Not to call anybody connected with law enforcement, 568 00:27:06,859 --> 00:27:08,092 Is that right? 569 00:27:08,194 --> 00:27:10,694 -That's correct. -And instead 570 00:27:10,796 --> 00:27:13,998 You went on the internet and found the macdonald website? 571 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:16,467 That's correct. 572 00:27:21,307 --> 00:27:23,173 Eugene: So, I contacted kathryn-- 573 00:27:23,275 --> 00:27:27,344 I think it was online, and I saw she had a website-- 574 00:27:27,446 --> 00:27:28,879 And her response was immediate. 575 00:27:31,517 --> 00:27:33,083 And at the same time, 576 00:27:33,185 --> 00:27:36,086 I think she immediately contacted the attorneys. 577 00:27:39,325 --> 00:27:41,225 (over phone): Helena confessed to her own mother. 578 00:27:41,327 --> 00:27:42,926 Why would she say that? 579 00:27:43,095 --> 00:27:45,396 There was nothing wrong with that woman mentally. 580 00:27:45,498 --> 00:27:46,997 She was sharp as a tack. 581 00:27:47,099 --> 00:27:49,500 And our lawyers were there. 582 00:27:49,602 --> 00:27:52,236 And, you know, a deathbed confession is considered, 583 00:27:52,338 --> 00:27:54,371 You know, irrefutable. 584 00:27:55,574 --> 00:27:57,141 Clarence: I got a call 585 00:27:57,243 --> 00:27:59,343 From gene late one night. 586 00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:02,479 He said, "we need to go. I'm gonna come pick you up. 587 00:28:02,581 --> 00:28:04,615 Mom's in the hospital." 588 00:28:04,717 --> 00:28:06,283 She wanted to get it off her chest 589 00:28:06,385 --> 00:28:09,553 That helena had told her that she was there. 590 00:28:11,157 --> 00:28:12,723 Bruce: I understand that your brother-- 591 00:28:12,825 --> 00:28:14,425 Now, this is your brother clarence? 592 00:28:14,527 --> 00:28:16,260 -Eugene: Right. -Is it fair to say 593 00:28:16,362 --> 00:28:18,962 That he was not supportive of this effort 594 00:28:19,065 --> 00:28:21,699 -That you were undertaking? -Absolutely. 595 00:28:23,235 --> 00:28:25,235 ♪ ♪ 596 00:28:26,739 --> 00:28:28,639 Clarence: Mrs. Macdonald showed up, 597 00:28:28,741 --> 00:28:30,641 And she brought roses and everything. 598 00:28:30,743 --> 00:28:32,409 I met her. 599 00:28:32,511 --> 00:28:34,545 And they went in, talked. 600 00:28:42,521 --> 00:28:45,989 Here we go, another adaption of the story. 601 00:28:46,092 --> 00:28:47,624 ♪ ♪ 602 00:28:53,566 --> 00:28:54,965 It is. 603 00:28:55,067 --> 00:28:57,067 ♪ ♪ 604 00:29:06,278 --> 00:29:09,413 The truth is like a little chick inside a egg, 605 00:29:09,515 --> 00:29:11,515 And it's pecking and pecking and pecking, 606 00:29:11,617 --> 00:29:13,784 And finally it just breaks open. 607 00:29:13,886 --> 00:29:15,486 And that's what I see 608 00:29:15,588 --> 00:29:17,488 Happening here. 609 00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:19,456 Smerling: Certainly, the macdonald camp 610 00:29:19,558 --> 00:29:22,359 Made it sound like she believed that she was there. 611 00:29:22,461 --> 00:29:24,194 Of course. (chuckles) 612 00:29:24,296 --> 00:29:26,497 Of course. 613 00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:29,032 There's an affidavit... From helena's mother 614 00:29:29,135 --> 00:29:31,835 Saying that she had said she was there. 615 00:29:38,444 --> 00:29:40,377 Widenhouse: Can you tell us a little bit 616 00:29:40,479 --> 00:29:44,181 About your sister having been associated 617 00:29:44,283 --> 00:29:46,683 With the macdonald investigation? 618 00:29:46,786 --> 00:29:48,952 Did it have any impact 619 00:29:49,054 --> 00:29:52,489 On... Towards your family life that you can recall? 620 00:29:52,591 --> 00:29:54,591 Oh, absolutely, it had an impact. 621 00:29:56,061 --> 00:30:00,197 To think that anybody that would involve themselves 622 00:30:00,299 --> 00:30:03,500 With something so horrific just for attention... 623 00:30:03,602 --> 00:30:05,836 I almost saw that as worse 624 00:30:05,938 --> 00:30:09,173 Than actually if she had been there as they said. 625 00:30:09,275 --> 00:30:11,341 At the time, I was ten years old, 626 00:30:11,443 --> 00:30:13,510 And I avoided 627 00:30:13,612 --> 00:30:16,180 Most social situations where... 628 00:30:16,282 --> 00:30:18,148 People would draw the conclusion 629 00:30:18,250 --> 00:30:20,317 That I was related to helena stoeckley. 630 00:30:20,419 --> 00:30:21,952 (sighs): I would deny it. 631 00:30:22,021 --> 00:30:24,021 You know, it took me quite a while 632 00:30:24,123 --> 00:30:26,456 Into my adult life before I was able 633 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:29,459 To quit trying to hide from it. 634 00:30:29,562 --> 00:30:31,962 It was a coming of terms 635 00:30:32,064 --> 00:30:35,232 With everything that I'd... Tried to hide from. 636 00:30:35,334 --> 00:30:39,469 You know, that day, I had to face it head-on. 637 00:30:39,572 --> 00:30:41,572 ♪ ♪ 638 00:30:46,312 --> 00:30:48,579 Thinking back on it, it was more of a... 639 00:30:48,681 --> 00:30:50,981 Liberating experience, or therapy, 640 00:30:51,083 --> 00:30:53,550 And it kind of set me free in a way. 641 00:30:53,652 --> 00:30:55,786 You know, it just, uh... 642 00:30:57,122 --> 00:30:59,323 I needed it. 643 00:31:02,061 --> 00:31:05,028 I would never deny her as being my sister... 644 00:31:05,130 --> 00:31:06,096 Again. 645 00:31:06,198 --> 00:31:08,298 You know, never. 646 00:31:10,903 --> 00:31:14,104 Clarence: I think mom said what she said 647 00:31:14,206 --> 00:31:17,641 To gene, that helena told her that she was there, 648 00:31:17,743 --> 00:31:21,812 So it'd be off her chest when... When she passed. 649 00:31:21,914 --> 00:31:24,314 Mom could pass... 650 00:31:24,416 --> 00:31:26,450 With dignity and... 651 00:31:26,552 --> 00:31:28,118 Nothing held back. 652 00:31:30,289 --> 00:31:32,022 I don't think 653 00:31:32,124 --> 00:31:33,624 She ever believed that she was there. 654 00:31:42,401 --> 00:31:44,201 Newsman: Being sought are four suspects, including a woman 655 00:31:44,303 --> 00:31:46,336 Who was described as having long blonde hair, 656 00:31:46,438 --> 00:31:48,972 Wearing cowboy boots, and carrying a candle. 657 00:31:49,074 --> 00:31:50,607 (siren wailing in distance) 658 00:31:50,709 --> 00:31:52,476 Prince beasley: And my captain called me and advised me 659 00:31:52,578 --> 00:31:55,812 That, uh, some army doctor's family had been wiped out 660 00:31:55,915 --> 00:31:57,681 At fort bragg, and they expected he was gonna die, too. 661 00:31:57,783 --> 00:32:01,151 So, uh, he said he had a description 662 00:32:01,253 --> 00:32:03,587 That the doctor had gave to the mps 663 00:32:03,689 --> 00:32:05,789 That they had passed on to him. 664 00:32:05,891 --> 00:32:09,259 He gave me the descriptions over the telephone. 665 00:32:09,361 --> 00:32:10,928 And, uh, I said, 666 00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:13,363 "well, I think I know who you're talking about." 667 00:32:13,465 --> 00:32:15,632 Tears begin to get into her eyes then. 668 00:32:15,734 --> 00:32:18,802 She says, uh, "I think I was there." 669 00:32:18,904 --> 00:32:21,805 She did not take part in the killings, but she was there. 670 00:32:21,907 --> 00:32:23,040 I think they were there. 671 00:32:23,142 --> 00:32:24,808 (echoes): I think they did it. 672 00:32:30,916 --> 00:32:32,249 Leslie cooley: Your honor, the government would call 673 00:32:32,351 --> 00:32:34,284 Raymond "butch" madden. 674 00:32:39,792 --> 00:32:42,759 -Good afternoon, mr. Madden. -Madden: Good afternoon. 675 00:32:42,861 --> 00:32:45,729 Cooley: How did you come to be involved in the case? 676 00:32:45,831 --> 00:32:49,633 Uh, after the first conviction of dr. Macdonald, 677 00:32:49,768 --> 00:32:51,435 An investigation was conducted 678 00:32:51,537 --> 00:32:54,237 That was submitted to the fbi 679 00:32:54,340 --> 00:32:56,606 Concerning prince beasley and... 680 00:32:56,709 --> 00:32:59,676 Ted gunderson, a private investigator. 681 00:32:59,778 --> 00:33:01,878 Cooley: Was helena stoeckley interviewed by ted gunderson 682 00:33:01,981 --> 00:33:03,347 And prince beasley? 683 00:33:03,449 --> 00:33:06,083 -Yes, ma'am, she was. -Did they make promises 684 00:33:06,151 --> 00:33:08,552 To her in order to interview? 685 00:33:08,654 --> 00:33:11,855 Madden: Th-they promised her the matter would, uh, 686 00:33:11,957 --> 00:33:14,658 Be cleared up once and for all. 687 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,494 Beasley also promised helena 688 00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:21,164 Employment and a new identity, if possible. 689 00:33:23,369 --> 00:33:25,569 Woman: Let's talk about prince beasley. 690 00:33:25,671 --> 00:33:29,940 (chuckles): Oh. Prince. Please don't call him prince. 691 00:33:30,042 --> 00:33:34,544 If ever I met a man who did not deserve that title... 692 00:33:34,646 --> 00:33:36,246 (chuckles) 693 00:33:36,348 --> 00:33:38,515 ...This was the man. 694 00:33:38,617 --> 00:33:40,617 ♪ ♪ 695 00:33:42,855 --> 00:33:46,356 He dealt strictly with helena. 696 00:33:49,528 --> 00:33:51,995 You know, when she was in trouble, 697 00:33:52,097 --> 00:33:54,164 He would help her out. 698 00:33:56,035 --> 00:33:58,435 (car door opens) 699 00:34:02,341 --> 00:34:04,975 And she would talk about him all the time, 700 00:34:05,077 --> 00:34:08,278 That he was always harassing her for information. 701 00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:10,380 ♪ ♪ 702 00:34:17,423 --> 00:34:21,324 One night, I saw her getting into his car. 703 00:34:21,427 --> 00:34:22,659 (siren wailing in distance) 704 00:34:22,761 --> 00:34:24,294 Woman: Was she on a lot of drugs 705 00:34:24,396 --> 00:34:27,097 -Back then? -(whispers): Oh, my god, yes. 706 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,166 She took all kinds of drugs. 707 00:34:29,268 --> 00:34:32,936 I never knew how she got her heroin. 708 00:34:33,038 --> 00:34:34,638 I suspected 709 00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:36,773 Beasley gave it to her. 710 00:34:39,711 --> 00:34:41,778 If you're an informant, 711 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,681 You got to get paid some way. 712 00:34:48,253 --> 00:34:50,320 Smerling: Certain people in the fayetteville police department, 713 00:34:50,422 --> 00:34:52,322 Particularly prince beasley, 714 00:34:52,424 --> 00:34:54,991 Sort of started this ball rolling, 715 00:34:55,094 --> 00:34:57,961 Uh, in a way that we're sitting here today 716 00:34:58,063 --> 00:35:00,964 Because prince beasley's relationship with your sister. 717 00:35:01,066 --> 00:35:04,801 Yeah, he's the catalyst that, uh, put it into her head, 718 00:35:04,937 --> 00:35:06,336 All this stuff, 719 00:35:06,438 --> 00:35:08,538 And-and he told her stuff 720 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,207 That somebody'd had... Had to have been there 721 00:35:10,309 --> 00:35:11,942 To know. 722 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,782 She was their informant, she wore a floppy hat. 723 00:35:18,884 --> 00:35:21,885 So, okay, "we can solve this murder real quick." 724 00:35:23,088 --> 00:35:25,489 (indistinct chatter) 725 00:35:45,711 --> 00:35:49,312 Conner: Could helena be influenced 726 00:35:49,414 --> 00:35:53,049 By prince beasley 727 00:35:53,152 --> 00:35:56,153 To say she was there the night of the murders? Yes. 728 00:36:02,895 --> 00:36:06,096 Conner: I think beasley had her in such a noose that 729 00:36:06,198 --> 00:36:08,198 She would do anything for him. 730 00:36:21,313 --> 00:36:23,313 Gunderson: Prince beasley-- 731 00:36:23,415 --> 00:36:25,148 He's been on this investigation 732 00:36:25,217 --> 00:36:26,950 Since the morning of the murders. 733 00:36:27,052 --> 00:36:30,554 He basically has bird-dogged the case step by step. 734 00:36:30,656 --> 00:36:33,924 And if it wasn't for him-- there's no question about it-- 735 00:36:34,026 --> 00:36:36,893 We wouldn't be where we are right here today. 736 00:36:43,068 --> 00:36:45,168 Cooley: Mr. Madden, when we left off, 737 00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:46,870 We were talking about your interview 738 00:36:46,972 --> 00:36:49,339 -With ted gunderson as part of... -Madden: Yes. 739 00:36:49,441 --> 00:36:50,807 Cooley: May I have page 815, 740 00:36:50,909 --> 00:36:52,108 Starting at the third paragraph? 741 00:36:52,211 --> 00:36:53,476 If you could just read for us 742 00:36:53,579 --> 00:36:54,711 Your conversation with gunderson? 743 00:36:54,813 --> 00:36:57,781 Myself: "have you, since that time, 744 00:36:57,883 --> 00:37:01,251 "actually entered into any contractual arrangements 745 00:37:01,353 --> 00:37:04,287 "with helena stoeckley for a book or a movie 746 00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:06,923 To be written regarding the macdonald case?" 747 00:37:07,025 --> 00:37:08,692 Gunderson: "yes, I have. 748 00:37:08,794 --> 00:37:12,128 I've talked to several people about it." 749 00:37:12,231 --> 00:37:15,532 Cooley: So he had contacted both people 750 00:37:15,634 --> 00:37:18,635 In the movie industry and in the book industry 751 00:37:18,737 --> 00:37:21,438 Regarding a book and a movie on this case? 752 00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:23,240 Madden: Yes. 753 00:37:24,876 --> 00:37:26,209 -You-you ready to go? -Man: We're rolling. 754 00:37:26,311 --> 00:37:27,444 (laughs) 755 00:37:27,546 --> 00:37:28,812 We'll have to wait till she straightens up here. 756 00:37:28,914 --> 00:37:30,046 (laughing): I can't now. 757 00:37:30,148 --> 00:37:31,848 When you said you were gonna... 758 00:37:31,917 --> 00:37:33,516 All right. Okay. 759 00:37:33,619 --> 00:37:37,520 What's being in a strange town without having... 760 00:37:37,623 --> 00:37:39,689 A name for yourself? 761 00:37:41,793 --> 00:37:44,060 Clarence: This is great. We have 762 00:37:44,162 --> 00:37:46,596 Our own helter skelter. 763 00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:06,249 No, helena, uh, has never lied to me that I know of. 764 00:38:06,351 --> 00:38:07,884 Only on one occasion. 765 00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:09,719 She is always very truthful. 766 00:38:09,821 --> 00:38:11,354 She has always been. 767 00:38:13,425 --> 00:38:14,758 My family out there. 768 00:38:14,860 --> 00:38:16,192 My family name. 769 00:38:20,299 --> 00:38:22,699 (indistinct chatter) 770 00:38:22,801 --> 00:38:24,100 -(beep) -man: Rolling. Room tone. 771 00:38:24,202 --> 00:38:26,169 Man 2: Room tone. 772 00:38:32,944 --> 00:38:34,544 Smerling: Prince beasley-- 773 00:38:34,646 --> 00:38:36,379 He's the first one who says, 774 00:38:36,481 --> 00:38:38,315 "I can pay the rent." (laughing) 775 00:38:40,152 --> 00:38:43,253 "floppy hat? I know somebody who wears a floppy hat." 776 00:38:43,355 --> 00:38:44,321 Yes. 777 00:38:44,423 --> 00:38:46,656 He starts the ball rolling. 778 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,261 This may prove a different kind of principle-- 779 00:38:51,363 --> 00:38:53,963 That if you wait long enough 780 00:38:54,066 --> 00:38:56,900 And you involve enough people 781 00:38:57,002 --> 00:38:59,736 In telling any story, 782 00:38:59,838 --> 00:39:02,339 You're gonna end up with a mess on your hands. 783 00:39:12,351 --> 00:39:17,153 Why now, so many years after the fact, 784 00:39:17,255 --> 00:39:19,789 Do we continue to argue about this case? 785 00:39:19,891 --> 00:39:21,925 We know, you and I know, 786 00:39:22,027 --> 00:39:25,595 That there has to be an answer here. 787 00:39:25,697 --> 00:39:30,166 Jeffrey macdonald either killed his family, 788 00:39:30,268 --> 00:39:32,502 Or someone else did. 789 00:39:32,604 --> 00:39:34,571 I was asleep on the couch, 790 00:39:34,706 --> 00:39:37,574 And, uh, the next thing that, uh, 791 00:39:37,676 --> 00:39:41,277 Is clear at all is that I was awakened by my wife's... 792 00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:43,113 ...Screaming, 793 00:39:43,215 --> 00:39:46,816 And I saw three people at the foot of the couch. 794 00:39:46,918 --> 00:39:49,719 The-the first three people that I saw were male. 795 00:39:49,821 --> 00:39:51,421 The black male to my left raised something, 796 00:39:51,523 --> 00:39:54,224 And he swung a club at me, and I threw my hand up. 797 00:39:54,326 --> 00:39:55,825 And he hit me in the head with the club. 798 00:39:55,927 --> 00:39:58,161 He drove me back to the, uh... 799 00:39:58,263 --> 00:39:59,662 ...The couch. 800 00:39:59,765 --> 00:40:01,564 I struggled back up. 801 00:40:01,666 --> 00:40:03,933 The struggle then continued for several more minutes. 802 00:40:04,035 --> 00:40:06,302 He struck me again with the bat. 803 00:40:06,405 --> 00:40:09,005 The white males in front of me began, 804 00:40:09,107 --> 00:40:11,908 I thought, pummeling me, and in the struggle... 805 00:40:12,010 --> 00:40:15,678 I just, for literally a mini-second, saw a glint. 806 00:40:15,781 --> 00:40:18,948 The light must have just hit the blade just right, 807 00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:20,583 And I just saw it for a split second, 808 00:40:20,685 --> 00:40:22,585 And I thought, "ah, I'm getting stabbed." 809 00:40:22,687 --> 00:40:24,654 The top must have been jerked over my head 810 00:40:24,756 --> 00:40:27,424 As they were trying to pull me off the couch. 811 00:40:27,526 --> 00:40:29,092 And then became unconscious. 812 00:40:29,194 --> 00:40:31,628 When I awoke at the end of the couch, 813 00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:33,496 I never really got out of the living room. 814 00:40:33,598 --> 00:40:36,766 Smerling: Can I play you a piece of helena's interview? 815 00:40:36,868 --> 00:40:38,234 Sure. 816 00:40:38,336 --> 00:40:40,603 Okay? Let's give it a shot. 817 00:40:42,374 --> 00:40:43,807 -(beep) -man: We're rolling. 818 00:40:43,909 --> 00:40:45,475 (indistinct chatter) 819 00:40:45,577 --> 00:40:49,212 Helena, tell us what happened from the time 820 00:40:49,314 --> 00:40:51,314 You entered the house that night. 821 00:40:53,084 --> 00:40:56,286 I entered the house with another member of the cult. 822 00:40:56,388 --> 00:40:58,955 We had to struggle with the door, 823 00:40:59,057 --> 00:41:01,491 Which is the reason I lit the candle. 824 00:41:01,593 --> 00:41:05,361 We went in. There were three members in there already, 825 00:41:05,464 --> 00:41:08,298 Talking to dr. Macdonald. 826 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,500 I thought they were simply asking 827 00:41:10,602 --> 00:41:12,669 For drugs or something like that. 828 00:41:12,771 --> 00:41:15,238 What happened at the couch as you approached the couch? 829 00:41:15,340 --> 00:41:18,708 When I went over there, macdonald was struggling 830 00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:21,177 With another member, because 831 00:41:21,279 --> 00:41:25,081 By that time, they had already argued about the drugs. 832 00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:28,051 And I said something about leaving him alone 833 00:41:28,153 --> 00:41:30,987 Or something like that. 834 00:41:31,089 --> 00:41:33,056 And they were still arguing 835 00:41:33,158 --> 00:41:35,992 About giving him some speed or something like that. 836 00:41:36,094 --> 00:41:37,994 Gunderson: About giving dr. Macdonald some speed? 837 00:41:38,096 --> 00:41:40,530 No, about getting some speed from him. 838 00:41:40,632 --> 00:41:42,632 The member of the cult wanted some speed. 839 00:41:42,734 --> 00:41:44,434 Gunderson: Mm-hmm. There were three mem... 840 00:41:44,536 --> 00:41:46,135 Members of the cult arguing with him? 841 00:41:46,238 --> 00:41:49,239 There was only one that was asking for it, 842 00:41:49,341 --> 00:41:51,941 But there was two others standing there. 843 00:41:52,043 --> 00:41:54,077 Did-did they have any weapons? 844 00:41:56,047 --> 00:41:58,047 (sighs heavily) 845 00:42:00,185 --> 00:42:03,920 No, they were using their fists then. 846 00:42:04,022 --> 00:42:06,256 Gunderson: Wh-what happened after that? 847 00:42:06,358 --> 00:42:07,957 Helena: Uh, he started arguing, 848 00:42:08,059 --> 00:42:10,226 And he said he would go to the phone 849 00:42:10,328 --> 00:42:12,028 And call someone. 850 00:42:12,130 --> 00:42:14,063 He tried to get to the phone, and... 851 00:42:14,165 --> 00:42:15,565 Did they allow him up from the couch? 852 00:42:15,667 --> 00:42:17,066 -Pardon? -Did they allow him 853 00:42:17,168 --> 00:42:18,501 -To get up from the couch? -Yes, sir. 854 00:42:18,570 --> 00:42:20,303 -Okay. -He tried to get to the phone, 855 00:42:20,405 --> 00:42:21,804 And when he went over there, 856 00:42:21,907 --> 00:42:24,574 We thought that he was trying to do that. 857 00:42:24,676 --> 00:42:28,044 But the men that were involved 858 00:42:28,146 --> 00:42:30,280 Were army personnel, 859 00:42:30,382 --> 00:42:34,450 And they realized he was calling the mps. 860 00:42:34,553 --> 00:42:37,453 And that's when the fighting ensued. 861 00:42:37,556 --> 00:42:39,289 Gunderson: And they fought 862 00:42:39,391 --> 00:42:40,757 In the living room near the phone? 863 00:42:40,859 --> 00:42:42,058 Helena: They told him to get back 864 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,426 In the living room. 865 00:42:43,595 --> 00:42:45,762 They went back to the couch. 866 00:42:45,864 --> 00:42:48,598 He sat down, but he was knocked unconscious. 867 00:42:48,700 --> 00:42:51,134 Gunderson: How was he knocked unconscious? 868 00:42:51,269 --> 00:42:54,370 -One of the members did it. -With what? 869 00:42:54,472 --> 00:42:56,706 -His fist. -Was there a club used? 870 00:42:56,808 --> 00:42:59,375 Not at that time. 871 00:43:03,648 --> 00:43:05,615 Smerling: So either... 872 00:43:05,717 --> 00:43:08,685 She's got her story wrong, 873 00:43:08,787 --> 00:43:11,454 Or jeffrey's got his story wrong. 874 00:43:11,556 --> 00:43:13,356 What do you think? 875 00:43:13,458 --> 00:43:16,993 I think that jeffrey's account is suspect, 876 00:43:17,095 --> 00:43:20,530 And... 877 00:43:20,632 --> 00:43:25,101 It really... Seems 878 00:43:25,203 --> 00:43:27,170 Internally inconsistent 879 00:43:27,272 --> 00:43:30,807 And not entirely believable. 880 00:43:30,909 --> 00:43:34,110 Do I believe that means 881 00:43:34,212 --> 00:43:36,012 That it... 882 00:43:36,114 --> 00:43:39,415 There were no intruders in the house? 883 00:43:39,517 --> 00:43:41,517 Uh... Maybe. 884 00:43:43,021 --> 00:43:44,821 Maybe it could be an elaborate attempt 885 00:43:44,923 --> 00:43:48,591 To cover up his own participation in the crime. 886 00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:51,094 But... 887 00:43:56,468 --> 00:43:59,669 I don't know. 888 00:43:59,771 --> 00:44:01,537 Do you think, from that story there, 889 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,640 That she was in the house? 890 00:44:08,179 --> 00:44:10,647 I don't know. 891 00:44:12,617 --> 00:44:15,318 Does that tell me that she wasn't there? 892 00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:18,588 Eh, not really. 893 00:44:19,758 --> 00:44:22,358 One thing that we know about human beings-- 894 00:44:22,460 --> 00:44:26,195 They have an almost infinite capacity 895 00:44:26,297 --> 00:44:27,830 To believe anything. 896 00:44:27,932 --> 00:44:31,167 And people are endlessly suggestible. 897 00:44:31,269 --> 00:44:34,337 But it goes both ways, of course. 898 00:44:34,439 --> 00:44:36,105 If we don't like a story-- 899 00:44:36,207 --> 00:44:40,443 And I'm not any different from anyone else in this regard-- 900 00:44:40,545 --> 00:44:44,914 We can say, "it's confabulation, it's confused, it's unreliable," 901 00:44:45,016 --> 00:44:47,984 And if we do like it, we can say, "oh, it is reliable. 902 00:44:48,086 --> 00:44:49,585 "it isn't confabulation. 903 00:44:49,688 --> 00:44:51,154 We can depend on it." 904 00:44:54,225 --> 00:44:55,658 People take sides. 905 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,393 People respond to one narrative 906 00:44:57,495 --> 00:44:59,562 Versus another. 907 00:44:59,664 --> 00:45:02,364 We are compelled by narratives. 908 00:45:02,434 --> 00:45:05,301 Much more by narratives than by evidence. 909 00:45:05,403 --> 00:45:07,503 Evidence 910 00:45:07,605 --> 00:45:11,441 Invariably takes... Second fiddle 911 00:45:11,543 --> 00:45:13,509 To narrative. 912 00:45:13,611 --> 00:45:16,279 Do you think you're still a reliable narrator in this story? 913 00:45:16,381 --> 00:45:20,917 I never was a reliable narrator. 914 00:45:21,019 --> 00:45:23,653 I'm not immune. 915 00:45:23,755 --> 00:45:25,488 I'm as fucked-up as the next guy. 916 00:45:25,590 --> 00:45:28,524 Take my word for it. 917 00:45:30,895 --> 00:45:35,732 I always have thought that a sign of intelligence 918 00:45:35,834 --> 00:45:38,501 Is never, ever to convince yourself 919 00:45:38,603 --> 00:45:42,004 That you know something when you don't. 920 00:45:42,107 --> 00:45:44,741 To be able to say "I don't know, 921 00:45:44,843 --> 00:45:48,311 "I don't understand, I'm confused, 922 00:45:48,413 --> 00:45:52,648 I'm fucked-up. Have mercy on me, please." 923 00:46:23,782 --> 00:46:26,015 There is no way that those people were in that house 924 00:46:26,117 --> 00:46:27,550 And didn't leave evidence, 925 00:46:27,652 --> 00:46:30,553 And the government record shows the evidence. 926 00:46:30,655 --> 00:46:33,256 It shows brown hair in my wife's hand. 927 00:47:10,228 --> 00:47:12,295 Captioned by media access group at wgbh access.Wgbh.Org